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Thread: Hardcore Rift Raiding Roundtable -- Fraud

  1. #151
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    #Ahov
    guilty conscience? :P

    Im not accusing nor even directing my message at you. Im debating the position of another person that tries to justify one action over another.

    My argument is simple: A change in Raid composition based on knowledge of a bug is taking advantage of such bug. My only intention was to debate the distinction Muspel does between the Chloro and the VK.

    No need to be paranoid. I dont know/care if you, or any of your guilds, used such tactics. :P

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gynxz View Post
    #Ahov
    guilty conscience? :P

    Im not accusing nor even directing my message at you. Im debating the position of another person that tries to justify one action over another.

    My argument is simple: A change in Raid composition based on knowledge of a bug is taking advantage of such bug. My only intention was to debate the distinction Muspel does between the Chloro and the VK.

    No need to be paranoid. I dont know/care if you, or any of your guilds, used such tactics. :P
    You used a nonexistent example to support your argument.

    Therefore, you have no argument. If guilds stacked chloromancers to take advantage of a bug, you could compare the two. If you wanted to make a better point, you could state that some guilds with BAD chloromancers were able to heal through damage which normally they would struggle. This is absolutely true, and I have no doubt some guilds cleared content faster due to their poor healing coordination. But running normal specs which are unfortunately bugged, is not exploiting a bug. Creating unconventional specs which would not be used minus the bug, is exploiting.
    Last edited by Ahov; 05-08-2013 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #153
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    Dam it, I decided to read the rest of your delusional post and the chip on your shoulder is bigger than I thought.

    #1 Im not making any acusations
    #2 I could make them but again, that was not my point
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Your accusations (whether pointed at Aegis or the raiding community as a whole) are baseless.
    That Implies that you know all the practices of all the raiding community and that, with that knowledge, you are certain no one ever stacked chloros. Wrong twice in one statement? I didn't make any accusations but If I did, they would not be baseless.

    Whats true and false is not decided by your knowledge/Ignorance or opinion. Sad that our first exchange of words got derailed in such a way but I said what I wanted to say, nothing else. Stop reading between the lines.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gynxz View Post
    Dam it, I decided to read the rest of your delusional post and the chip on your shoulder is bigger than I thought.

    #1 Im not making any acusations
    #2 I could make them but again, that was not my point

    That Implies that you know all the practices of all the raiding community and that, with that knowledge, you are certain no one ever stacked chloros. Wrong twice in one statement? I didn't make any accusations but If I did, they would not be baseless.

    Whats true and false is not decided by your knowledge/Ignorance or opinion. Sad that our first exchange of words got derailed in such a way but I said what I wanted to say, nothing else. Stop reading between the lines.
    Please post a video example of a relevant kill

  5. #155
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    You used a nonexistent example to support your argument.
    You ignorance doesn't make things false. Everyone's Knowledge is not capped at yours. Stop imposing your limitations into others.

    You are wrong in the interpretation of my message and wrong in your argument about it. You don't know it, but that's irrelevant. This conversation is pointless and, on my side, over. Have fun responding for your fans or someone that will read it.

  6. #156
    Plane Walker Jimhalpert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    But running normal specs which are unfortunately bugged, is not exploiting a bug.
    If you used bugs you used bugs. Your argument is founded on the assumption that exploiting would be using more chloros. But you would need fewer chloros if it was bugged, not more.

    Stacking because of bugs = DPS, Cutting because of bugs = Healers.

    By own admission you used the same healing comp then as you do now. Wasn't it intended to be harder then?
    Last edited by Jimhalpert; 05-08-2013 at 02:18 AM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimhalpert View Post
    If you used bugs you used bugs. Your argument is founded on the assumption that exploiting would be using more chloros. But you would need fewer chloros if it was bugged, not more.

    Stacking because of bugs = DPS, Cutting because of bugs = Healers.

    By own admission you used the same healing comp then as you do now. Wasn't it intended to be harder then?
    My argument is based on dps requirements.

    For progression, you always overheal until you hit an enrage timer or fail a soft enrage. Let's use Progenitor as an example: in our first kill we ran 3 chloromancers, even though it's arguably the easiest fight to heal, because we were miles ahead of the enrage timer and could afford the loss in dps to do so. There was no "going out of the way" to stack chloromancers; all compositions were normal compositions. Compositions of 8 VK dps warriors are not normal.

    Without the bug, you should continue running 2-3 chloromancers as they are/were the best healers overall.
    Without the bug, you wouldn't run 8 RB/VK dps warriors.

    I don't know how to make this any more clear.
    Last edited by Ahov; 05-08-2013 at 02:25 AM.

  8. #158
    Plane Walker Jimhalpert's Avatar
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    Suppose I can make 100p per day fishing. Further suppose this is the best income available in the game.
    But I can make 500p per day botting fishing. So: if I bot, does it then mean I'm not cheating because I would have been fishing anyway, since it is the best income available?

    Chloros performed better than intended because of a bug. Just because you would have used them anyway doesn't mean you didn't use a bug. If it's easier than intended it is easier than intended.

    Even if you use 2 RB/VK warriors instead of 8 RB/VK warriors you still exploited because you did more DPS than intended.
    Last edited by Jimhalpert; 05-08-2013 at 02:34 AM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gynxz View Post
    You ignorance doesn't make things false. Everyone's Knowledge is not capped at yours. Stop imposing your limitations into others.

    You are wrong in the interpretation of my message and wrong in your argument about it. You don't know it, but that's irrelevant. This conversation is pointless and, on my side, over. Have fun responding for your fans or someone that will read it.
    My knowledge on these matters is much broader than yours. You've made an outlandish claim of guilds stacking up to five chloromancers, and if I've never heard of such a thing, it probably didn't happen among the hardcore raiding community.

    If it was some casual guild who thought it was a good idea to stack five chloromancers, then the entire event is inherently irrelevant. Casual guilds + exploits =/= news.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimhalpert View Post
    Suppose I can make 100p per day fishing. Further suppose this is the best income available in the game.
    But I can make 500p per day botting fishing. So: if I bot, does it then mean I'm not cheating because I would have been fishing anyway, since it is the best income available?

    Chloros performed better than intended because of a bug. Just because you would have used them anyway doesn't mean you didn't use a bug. If it's easier than intended it is easier than intended.
    http://i.imgur.com/xFCmFAd.png

    Please tell me how using a normal raid composition which happens to be bugged, is exploiting according to those definitions.

    You are setting this issue as black and white, where apparently the only good thing to do is not raid at all while we wait 2 months on Trion to fix the bug. Is that what you're really implying? If so, you need a reality check.

    Botting is automation, and you wouldn't be fishing anyways because you would be sleeping or watching a movie, or some other activity. My stance on fishbots has been firm since the implementation of fishing. I reported a member of my own guild Maximation because if he kept doing it he would further tarnish our reputation. Perhaps you also don't remember my posts on the matter of Special Olympics and their fish-bots.
    Last edited by Ahov; 05-08-2013 at 02:39 AM.

  11. #161
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimhalpert View Post
    Suppose I can make 100p per day fishing. Further suppose this is the best income available in the game.
    But I can make 500p per day botting fishing. So: if I bot, does it then mean I'm not cheating because I would have been fishing anyway, since it is the best income available?
    That's a very broken example, having a bot fish for you doesn't make you 5x more money per unit time, it makes you more money because the bot in this example did it for 5x as long.

    A better example would be: I fish for 1 hour everyday and average 100p, suddenly a bug appears and I now make 300p an hour. If you stil fish for 1 hour everyday you are gaining advantage from that bug but aren't exploiting it, if you suddenly start fishing 3 hours a day you are exploiting the bug. Same thing with Chloromancers and RB/VK. Before the bugs most people used 2-3 Chloromancer and 0 RB/VKs, during the bugs most people used 2-3 Chloromancers and 5+ RB/VKs, after the bugs most people used 2-3 Chloromancers and 0 RB/VKs.

    People gained advantage from the Chloromancer bug, but not many people exploited it (although you can see some videos, expecially Matriarch firsts where people did.) People gained advantage from RB/VK and almost everyone exploited it.
    Nope.

  12. #162
    Plane Walker Jimhalpert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Please tell me how using a normal raid composition which happens to be bugged, is exploiting according to those definitions.
    Suppose a world class player is intended to be able to solo heal a raid with a chloro. Further suppose a recent patch has introduced a bug with a passive aura that allows a chloro to solo heal a raid with no input from the player.
    If you use a chloro under those conditions did you not exploit, because you would have used one anyway?
    Last edited by Jimhalpert; 05-08-2013 at 02:42 AM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimhalpert View Post
    Suppose a world class player is intended to be able to solo heal a raid with a chloro. Further suppose a recent patch has introduced a bug with a passive aura that allows a chloro to solo heal a raid with no input from the player.
    If you use a chloro under those conditions did you not exploit, because you would have used one anyway?
    That isn't an exploit, and if Trion didn't immediately fix it, would just show further how they have ignored these serious bugs. Such a bug, if prevalent immediately on progression and you could suddenly run 16 DPS and burn through a new tier within a few days, would kill the game.

    Wouldn't be an exploit to run your normal comp, but it would kill the game. EE almost killed the game. The kills there meant less than previous tiers.
    Last edited by Ahov; 05-08-2013 at 02:46 AM.

  14. #164
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  15. #165
    MNM
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    Suppose all tanking souls had a bug similar to what you're talking about. Would you be exploiting by using a tank? No I'm pretty sure you need one, similar deal with the chloro.

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