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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: 2-Hand Weapons - Red-headed Stepchild

  1. #1
    Ascendant Bloodbourne's Avatar
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    Default 2-Hand Weapons - Red-headed Stepchild

    While everyone certainly appreciates the balance we now have with DW versus 2H weapons, I can't help but point out that 2H weapons are lacking in rawr stats. The DPS comes out to be damn near equal, but the stats are no where near that.

    Comparing Relics, top of the food chain...
    Ignoring procs for the moment (but we'll touch back later), I want to show Just how skewed the numbers are...

    Death's Final Defeat
    Two-Handed Axe
    Damage per Second: 327.5
    871-1618 damage every 3.8 seconds
    Strength +172
    Dexterity +127
    Endurance +117
    Attack Power +77
    Hit Bonus +130

    Windblade
    Sword
    Damage per Second: 251.7
    370-687 damage every 2.1 seconds
    Strength +92
    Dexterity +71
    Endurance +68
    Attack Power +34
    Hit Bonus +65

    Marrow of Death
    Axe
    Damage per Second: 251.9
    423-786 damage every 2.4 seconds
    Strength +95
    Dexterity +74
    Endurance +63
    Attack Power +34
    Hit Bonus +65

    (These are current LIVE stats... not the updated PTS stats, which do not help in this case)

    Accounting for PA

    2h Relic
    Total AP - 319.75
    Total Crit - 149.5

    DW Relics
    Total AP - 340.5
    Total Crit - 166

    This is a fairly significant disparity. Making the 2H weapon far less desirable for more than cosmetic purposes.

    Do I think someone without Relic 1H's will turn down the 2h? Absolutely not... but in the end, the relic 2H is just a placeholder.
    Misterwar <-Virus-> 5/11 Warborne <Yakisoba> 5/11 Warborne <Apotheosys> 0/11

  2. #2
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    This was one of the things I feared would happen when the disparity between the two was removed for SL. 2h weapon's just want to be equal to 2 1hs, and I believe Moses said it best when he said, "Let my 2h weapons go!"

  3. #3
    Ascendant Bloodbourne's Avatar
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    I don't have all these relics, so I can only speak to what I've been told about the procs.

    1h weapons seem to be offering roughly 80DPS on avg (ST procs) or 30DPS (AoE per target).

    2h Weapons are offering roughly 140 DPS (ST Procs) and 50DPS (AoE per target)
    Misterwar <-Virus-> 5/11 Warborne <Yakisoba> 5/11 Warborne <Apotheosys> 0/11

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    This is a fairly significant disparity. Making the 2H weapon far less desirable for more than cosmetic purposes.
    Casters have a similar stat disparity. I suppose you need to factor weapon PA's, since to get the MH/OH advantage you will typically need to have maxed more PA's. The other factor is the obvious one, that you require two drops instead of one - which can mean getting lucky twice; something that may prove impossible to some

    I think there should be a slight advantage in MH/OH however I'm not really in a position to say whether they've got this right for physical classes. It seems about right for casters.

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    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    A couple of our warriors were a bit upset about this after seeing that the stat disparity still exists on PTS as well. Prior to that the assumption was that it would be fixed after we reported it immediately following our first Marrow drop, Marrow was previously an unknown drop to us much like nearly everything else that isn't a relic wand. (Sorry, ignore the loot RNG QQ, I don't want to hijack the thread with it but I'm compelled to QQ a little bit, but only a little bit since it's pointless outside of making me feel better between now and our next relic wand drops this coming Wednesday.)

    A mildly amusing aside, though not literally, I was loot master for our first Marrow drop and saw the item icon which is identical to Soul Reaper's inventory icon and I had a brief moment of elation before mousing over it to realize that Marrow was a one hander and the Soul Reaper's skin that reminded me so much of Asteroth from Soul Caliber is gone forever unless I open my bank bags to gaze on it and cross my fingers that one day weapon wardrobe slots will exist despite the excuses about attack animations. I thought I had a shot at a second world first two handed death axe but the troll is on me. Nice troll Trion, nice troll.)

    Perhaps there is a dropped 2hander from Regulos I haven't seen yet but at this point it seems doubtful which leaves Death's Final Defeat the BiS 2hander despite not being BiS at all. Part of me wants to say the dropped weapons should have slightly better stats than the upgraded weapons but since the upgraded weapons require both loot RNG and an end boss kill of what is currently the most difficult of the two end bosses it only makes sense that they be statistically even or at least closer than they are currently. I see no justification for it to be otherwise and I'm sure, rather I hope, it was an oversight that the stats are lower on the BiS 2hander relative to the BiS one handers.

    The whole point of normalizing dual wield and 2handers was to provide more options but instead we have players grudgingly accepting the 2hander with hopes of upgrading to BiS one handers in the future, After hardmodes have been out for a bit and the next 20 man is not expected until much later, since that's how LSG, Alsbeth, Akylios, Maelforge and so far both Regulos and Crucia worked out. Loot luck is loot luck, not even crying about it since we expect it by now.

    TLDR: The weapon DPS is equivalent, why not the stats as well since the stated intention of making dual wield and two handers both viable for all warrior specs was obviously not to have dual wield be the superior option and two handers be the consolation prize for guilds with poor RNG on warrior weapons from Crucia and Regulos.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    I honestly didn't mean to be more verbose than usual and that post is well beyond the usual, wow, side effect of my "medicine" I suppose. The point was, I agree, BiS warrior weapons should have the same stats, the procs I'm not as worried about, otherwise what's the point in balancing their DPS to be equal and allowing us to use either with any soul.

  7. #7
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    So the complaint is really that 1 drop isn't better than 2 drops...

    I think people are getting ahead of themselves here. I would honestly be disappointed if 2 separate drops combined weren't better than a single drop. At least warriors get near BIS single drops. Rogues HAVE to get 2 drops!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    So the complaint is really that 1 drop isn't better than 2 drops...

    I think people are getting ahead of themselves here. I would honestly be disappointed if 2 separate drops combined weren't better than a single drop. At least warriors get near BIS single drops. Rogues HAVE to get 2 drops!
    A relic 1h with a raid 1h is better than a relic 2h (same dps contribution and better stats)

  9. #9
    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    So the complaint is really that 1 drop isn't better than 2 drops...

    I think people are getting ahead of themselves here. I would honestly be disappointed if 2 separate drops combined weren't better than a single drop. At least warriors get near BIS single drops. Rogues HAVE to get 2 drops!
    Except the BiS 2hander is an epic drop that has to be upgraded, which is two drops rather than one. Either way we need two drops. Also, I say it's a BiS 2hander because it's the only one in SL with DPS stats of which I am aware.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Havors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    A couple of our warriors were a bit upset about this after seeing that the stat disparity still exists on PTS as well. Prior to that the assumption was that it would be fixed after we reported it immediately following our first Marrow drop, Marrow was previously an unknown drop to us much like nearly everything else that isn't a relic wand. (Sorry, ignore the loot RNG QQ, I don't want to hijack the thread with it but I'm compelled to QQ a little bit, but only a little bit since it's pointless outside of making me feel better between now and our next relic wand drops this coming Wednesday.)

    A mildly amusing aside, though not literally, I was loot master for our first Marrow drop and saw the item icon which is identical to Soul Reaper's inventory icon and I had a brief moment of elation before mousing over it to realize that Marrow was a one hander and the Soul Reaper's skin that reminded me so much of Asteroth from Soul Caliber is gone forever unless I open my bank bags to gaze on it and cross my fingers that one day weapon wardrobe slots will exist despite the excuses about attack animations. I thought I had a shot at a second world first two handed death axe but the troll is on me. Nice troll Trion, nice troll.)

    Perhaps there is a dropped 2hander from Regulos I haven't seen yet but at this point it seems doubtful which leaves Death's Final Defeat the BiS 2hander despite not being BiS at all. Part of me wants to say the dropped weapons should have slightly better stats than the upgraded weapons but since the upgraded weapons require both loot RNG and an end boss kill of what is currently the most difficult of the two end bosses it only makes sense that they be statistically even or at least closer than they are currently. I see no justification for it to be otherwise and I'm sure, rather I hope, it was an oversight that the stats are lower on the BiS 2hander relative to the BiS one handers.

    The whole point of normalizing dual wield and 2handers was to provide more options but instead we have players grudgingly accepting the 2hander with hopes of upgrading to BiS one handers in the future, After hardmodes have been out for a bit and the next 20 man is not expected until much later, since that's how LSG, Alsbeth, Akylios, Maelforge and so far both Regulos and Crucia worked out. Loot luck is loot luck, not even crying about it since we expect it by now.

    TLDR: The weapon DPS is equivalent, why not the stats as well since the stated intention of making dual wield and two handers both viable for all warrior specs was obviously not to have dual wield be the superior option and two handers be the consolation prize for guilds with poor RNG on warrior weapons from Crucia and Regulos.
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/D783997C01010101

    Im just happy to see there is a couple of relic 2handers! As for the OP, by the time i could get 2 relic 1 handers the next expansion will be out.. BUT even with the Windblade/Marrow Harvest and the BiS epic they still have a ton more stats than the 2handers.... genius!

    The stats do need a boost on the 2handers for sure. Something they seem to be over looking at the moment.
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  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    2 rng drops are better than 1 rng drop.
    If 2h and 1h weapons would be equal in stats you will never wait for the 2nd 1h if you have the chance to get a 2h weapon.
    They only made 2h and 1h weapons equal for warriors so you can have a free choice of souls with each weapon.
    Another reason if you equalize both we have to face that rogues will also want to have the option to wear 2h melee weapons, because they would be the only class which always depends on 2 drops for melee weapons.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Kryoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    2 rng drops are better than 1 rng drop.
    If 2h and 1h weapons would be equal in stats you will never wait for the 2nd 1h if you have the chance to get a 2h weapon.
    They only made 2h and 1h weapons equal for warriors so you can have a free choice of souls with each weapon.
    Another reason if you equalize both we have to face that rogues will also want to have the option to wear 2h melee weapons, because they would be the only class which always depends on 2 drops for melee weapons.
    The only viable 2h is a drop from the 2nd to last boss...in the game. Then you need to proceed to kill Regulos and get a heart of regulos over everyone else in your raid. There are SIX raid level warrior 1h's. One of these is a relic drop from Crucia

    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    following our first Marrow drop, Marrow was previously an unknown drop to us
    Seven.
    Last edited by Kryoz; 02-23-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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  13. #13
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    This is not just the case with dropped PVE weapons. It is the same for PVP weapons, which costs the same amount of marks/ favor etc to get 2 x 1hand, or a 2hander. So the point about its harder to get 2 x 1hand drops is irrelevant. If you get both items, you will have more stats than a 2 hand version which is pointless to go for a 2hand if you have a choice. And this stats differentiation is across all tiers of SL gear, not just raid items.

    And durango, a warrior doesnt need and offhand relic as this is only a stat stick tbh.
    Our dps goes off our MH x1.3 (to match the 2hd dps value). Now im not sure about rogues but im sure only blade dancer uses off hand attacks atm, otherwise the other melee is off the MH ? Please correct me if im wrong.
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  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dementic View Post
    The only viable 2h is a drop from the 2nd to last boss...in the game. Then you need to proceed to kill Regulos and get a heart of regulos over everyone else in your raid. There are SIX raid level warrior 1h's. One of these is a relic drop from Crucia



    Seven.
    There are 4 raid epic drops for 1h and 2 for 2h.
    There 2 1h relics and 2 2h relics(+warlord 2h) and there will be maybe a 4th(and 3rd epic) with Grim Awakening unless they abaddon the created polearm skin.
    Last edited by Soulshield; 02-23-2013 at 10:03 AM.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    There are 4 raid epic drops for 1h and 2 for 2h.
    There 2 1h relics and 2 2h relics(+warlord 2h) and there will be maybe a 4th(and 3rd epic) with Grim Awakening unless they abaddon the created polearm skin.
    There are five epic raid quality 1handers, not four. In addition, the warlord 2hander should not even be considered. I wouldn't use it over any epic raid quality 1hander paired with a Necroscapel. If you want to be practical there are only three desirable epic raid quality 1handers, two desirable relic 1handers, one epic 2hander, and two relic 2handers. Those currently using any of the 2handers in our guild do so only until they can replace them with 1handers, which at this rate is a very long time. Begs the question, albeit rhetorical, why do 2handers even exist if you people are correct in your assumption that it is intended they be inferior. I would rather they didn't in that case.

    Assumptions about future content are not relevant in conversations about current content.

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