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Thread: Guildmember says its not about level

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Guildmember says its not about level

    running dungeon today level 52 druid/shaman cleric. Pulled 1500 dps. NBD. Level 60 mage running with us says our dps is too low. Says that he could pull 4k dps at level 50 and the gear and levels dont matter its all about spec and rotation. I don't really care about dps right now but the guy comes off as a major ****** and i feel like his logic is flawed. Maybe I'm wrong?

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    Champion millie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    running dungeon today level 52 druid/shaman cleric. Pulled 1500 dps. NBD. Level 60 mage running with us says our dps is too low. Says that he could pull 4k dps at level 50 and the gear and levels dont matter its all about spec and rotation. I don't really care about dps right now but the guy comes off as a major ****** and i feel like his logic is flawed. Maybe I'm wrong?
    If he was in ID gear (particularly relic) then yes he probably was. Your dps should be a little higher but he is still not a nice person.
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    Sword of Telara Crovack's Avatar
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    1500 is very low single target and it's even worse if it was aoe.
    The bulk of a dps contribution comes from a combination of spec, skill and gear. Either your spec is a bad one for playing a dps in dungeons, your skill with that spec is extremely low, or your gear is well below what it should be for your level.

    While there are any number of players that may be elitist and have unreasonable expectations of the players in their pugs, that level of dps is low to the point of being inadequate to complete some dungeons. It may be very true that the mage was rude, but from the standpoint of those who you are grouping with that may struggle or fail due to your contribution level - you're the one being rude. There's an expectation when you group with others and queue as a specific role in that group that you are capable of performing that role, at least within the minimum threshold setout by Trion.

    And in response to millie - you don't need ID gear to pull more than 1500 dps. At level 52 wearing the greens from the starting storyline quests in SL you should have more than enough gear to generate dps well above that.

    If you walk into a dungeon and the tank can't keep agro or the healer is incapable of keeping the tank alive due to low healing output, they would be failing their roles. In the same way, a dps pulling that low of dps is failing to pull their weight in a dungeon and expecting others to compensate for them. That is just as rude, if not more so.

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    On one hand he's wrong to speak to you like that, there's better ways of sayng it, on the other hand you're wrong too for not caring about DPS.

    If you go into group content not caring about how you perform you're role then you're asking to be carried. Is that really fair?
    Last edited by ewarwoo; 12-11-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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    Champion millie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovack View Post
    1500 is very low single target and it's even worse if it was aoe.
    The bulk of a dps contribution comes from a combination of spec, skill and gear. Either your spec is a bad one for playing a dps in dungeons, your skill with that spec is extremely low, or your gear is well below what it should be for your level.

    While there are any number of players that may be elitist and have unreasonable expectations of the players in their pugs, that level of dps is low to the point of being inadequate to complete some dungeons. It may be very true that the mage was rude, but from the standpoint of those who you are grouping with that may struggle or fail due to your contribution level - you're the one being rude. There's an expectation when you group with others and queue as a specific role in that group that you are capable of performing that role, at least within the minimum threshold setout by Trion.

    And in response to millie - you don't need ID gear to pull more than 1500 dps. At level 52 wearing the greens from the starting storyline quests in SL you should have more than enough gear to generate dps well above that.

    If you walk into a dungeon and the tank can't keep agro or the healer is incapable of keeping the tank alive due to low healing output, they would be failing their roles. In the same way, a dps pulling that low of dps is failing to pull their weight in a dungeon and expecting others to compensate for them. That is just as rude, if not more so.
    I said that, what I was pointing out that someone pulling 4k at level 50 pre Storm Legion was probably raid geared. 1500 is too low, 4k might be aspirational at lvl 52 with greens.
    There are eight species of Bear (Ursidae): Arctos, Americanus, Thibetanus, Maritimus, Helarctos, Melonleuca, Ornatus, Malayanus, Ursinus.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewarwoo View Post
    On one hand he's wrong to speak to you like that, there's better ways of sayng it, on the other hand you're wrong too for not caring about DPS.

    If you go into group content not caring about how you perform you're role then you're asking to be carried. Is that really fair?
    it was a guild group.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovack View Post
    1500 is very low single target and it's even worse if it was aoe.
    The bulk of a dps contribution comes from a combination of spec, skill and gear. Either your spec is a bad one for playing a dps in dungeons, your skill with that spec is extremely low, or your gear is well below what it should be for your level.

    While there are any number of players that may be elitist and have unreasonable expectations of the players in their pugs, that level of dps is low to the point of being inadequate to complete some dungeons. It may be very true that the mage was rude, but from the standpoint of those who you are grouping with that may struggle or fail due to your contribution level - you're the one being rude. There's an expectation when you group with others and queue as a specific role in that group that you are capable of performing that role, at least within the minimum threshold setout by Trion.

    And in response to millie - you don't need ID gear to pull more than 1500 dps. At level 52 wearing the greens from the starting storyline quests in SL you should have more than enough gear to generate dps well above that.

    If you walk into a dungeon and the tank can't keep agro or the healer is incapable of keeping the tank alive due to low healing output, they would be failing their roles. In the same way, a dps pulling that low of dps is failing to pull their weight in a dungeon and expecting others to compensate for them. That is just as rude, if not more so.
    and this is what i was asking. What dps should i be pulling? Im not attacking the guy for telling me my dps was too low im attacking the guy for going about it in a rude/obnoxious way. Is that too much to ask?

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    Ascendant Laeris's Avatar
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    @52, my warrior does 1700 DPS with SL quest gear and a solo spec that uses either heavy warlord or another spec that uses riftblade. I would -never- take those into a dungeon. That's because they're designed for soloing. They're a mix of damage and survivability. In dungeons, you need to have a DPS spec that is 100% nothing but damage. In his DPS role, he does around 3000 single target in a tempest role.

    So yes, if you're pulling 1500 or anywhere less than 2k... then that guy criticizing you was not off base. Your DPS is very low. In fact, most L48s can do more than 1500.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched
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    In a guild group he shouldn't have been giving you grief for having low dps... He should have been giving you advice or pointing you to people who can, so that your dps can go up. IMO, 1500 dps is on the low side but not so low that it would cause the group to fail just because of a dps check, at least for a 52 in leveling gear. I didn't start to replace my ID raid gear on my warrior until 56 (not counting my weapon), and I didn't replace the last piece of it until shortly after 60, so the old raid gear is actually that much better.

    Your dps could probably be better, and you might need to check out a guide or talk to another guildy who does more dps to help work things out: it might also be as simple as you were using a solo spec instead of a pure dps spec, and that's usually pretty easy to change. On the other hand, anyone saying gear doesn't matter for dps numbers, has no clue what they're talking about what so ever.

    This is all assuming the 1500 was single target dps of course. If it was AE dps, then you are FAR below average, and need to ask for advice on what you were doing wrong (don't feel to bad about this, pros don't start pro, they have to learn what they're doing just like everyone else).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    it was a guild group.
    And that means it's fair to expect people to carry you? Sure, people need a chance to learn, but not caring about dps isn't learning.

    I've always been of the opinion that pretty much anything is acceptable as long as they're trying to perform and improve.

    Other hand if someone's clearly along for the carry they can do one, guildy or not.
    Last edited by ewarwoo; 12-11-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewarwoo View Post
    And that means it's fair to expect people to carry you? Sure, people need a chance to learn, but not caring about dps isn't learning.

    I've always been of the opinion that pretty much anything is acceptable as long as they're trying to perform and improve.

    Other hand if someone's clearly along for the carry they can do one, guildy or not.
    i geuss what i meant was that i ddint care about optimizing my spec for dungeons until i hit 60. Someone in guild called me out randomly and asked if i wanted to go. I said sure why not. I didnt join up to get carried, I didnt even really want to go but hey a full guild group sounded like a good time. Thanks for your feedback that I need to be pulling max possible dps for a leveling dungeon or im getting carried. I geuss I will just stay away from dungeons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeris View Post
    @52, my warrior does 1700 DPS with SL quest gear and a solo spec that uses either heavy warlord or another spec that uses riftblade. I would -never- take those into a dungeon. That's because they're designed for soloing. They're a mix of damage and survivability. In dungeons, you need to have a DPS spec that is 100% nothing but damage. In his DPS role, he does around 3000 single target in a tempest role.

    So yes, if you're pulling 1500 or anywhere less than 2k... then that guy criticizing you was not off base. Your DPS is very low. In fact, most L48s can do more than 1500.
    Thank you for the feedback, this is pretty much the response i was looking for. Thank you!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedolan View Post
    In a guild group he shouldn't have been giving you grief for having low dps... He should have been giving you advice or pointing you to people who can, so that your dps can go up. IMO, 1500 dps is on the low side but not so low that it would cause the group to fail just because of a dps check, at least for a 52 in leveling gear. I didn't start to replace my ID raid gear on my warrior until 56 (not counting my weapon), and I didn't replace the last piece of it until shortly after 60, so the old raid gear is actually that much better.

    Your dps could probably be better, and you might need to check out a guide or talk to another guildy who does more dps to help work things out: it might also be as simple as you were using a solo spec instead of a pure dps spec, and that's usually pretty easy to change. On the other hand, anyone saying gear doesn't matter for dps numbers, has no clue what they're talking about what so ever.

    This is all assuming the 1500 was single target dps of course. If it was AE dps, then you are FAR below average, and need to ask for advice on what you were doing wrong (don't feel to bad about this, pros don't start pro, they have to learn what they're doing just like everyone else).
    thanks for the response. It was a single target fight so atleast i got that going for me.

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    Ascendant Laeris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    Thank you for the feedback, this is pretty much the response i was looking for. Thank you!
    I'd offer some pointers but I'm not the best warrior in SL. I leveled my mage first this go around and am just now getting into it with my warrior. I'm a bit of a maverick experimenter and I don't rely on the forums for specs... but the warrior class forum does have some info there if you need to look at it.

    Just remember one thing about the class forums. MOST of the specs you find will be posted by raiders and designed for raiding which also requires a certain gear level. Some specs, like with mages, work better at lower gear levels. For example the mage pyrolock pre SL was better if you only had mixed HK gear whereas the defilemancer spec did better with higher end HK or ID gear.

    IMO, the best way to gauge yourself is to download something like simple meter (supported DPS parser) and practice on target dummies whilst using different specs and soul combinations until you find something that balances between working well and it being fun to play. People aren't going to give you crap if you can pull your weight.

    Just remember that although we all play to have fun... in grouping, what is fun for you might be dragging the group down. So, in group content, it pays to put aside our biases and try and maximize our group performance over our own self enjoyment... to a degree. I really love Paladin. However, if I can't tank I am not going to be "one of those guys" who WILL NOT change out of a paladin role because "that's what I like to do."
    Last edited by Laeris; 12-11-2012 at 11:30 PM.

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    To misinterpret:
    I've always been of the opinion that pretty much anything is acceptable as long as they're trying to perform and improve.
    As:
    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    Thanks for your feedback that I need to be pulling max possible dps for a leveling dungeon or im getting carried. I geuss I will just stay away from dungeons.
    Demonstrates a special ability to misunderstand things, I'm guessing your guildy was trying to help you and you misunderstood him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    i geuss what i meant was that i ddint care about optimizing my spec for dungeons until i hit 60.
    Its fairly important. Its your final specs with a few less skills, in instances with more forgivable mechanics. Its where you practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echonn123 View Post
    I didnt even really want to go but hey a full guild group sounded like a good time
    Just because someone starts offering you tips in group encounters doesn't mean its not.

    Rather than forum QQ just telling him you were new to dungeons and appreciate any tips for next time would have had it sorted. Gets you talking to guildies, demonstrates a willingness to learn which will get you invited to far more events, and doesn't preclude you coming on here for tips and builds.

    A MMO is about group content. That doesn't mean its about people doing things for you. That means its about working together.

    Go into the cleric forums, grab a build, just say in chat "I've done some research and I've got a DPS spec to try, anyone want to run a dungeon?" you'll likely get a positive response from the same guy.
    Last edited by ewarwoo; 12-12-2012 at 12:38 AM.
    Rumpunch (W) - Rumedy (C) - Chaos Inc of Laethys
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