World 4th Laethys?

[Merridwyn]

Also triple combo we experienced today was also pretty awesome - red ****, orb and shockwave on add phase. ^^

Oh yes, been there, done that. Got the "I'm a squishy" T-Shirt.

[Sebb]

My joke has started what is probably the most amusing forum convo about RNG in a while.

I don't think they get the joke.

[Vioarr]

Ur linking that old achi to prove you can be lucky and get World First Laethys while not able to achieve Maelforge?

Glad we agree that "rng" goes both ways. Thought you were busy hiding/dodging powerstone questions still :P

The age of the achievement has nothing to do with it, the point is to demonstrate that I obviously have an understanding of the fight to be able to complete it unless you mean to argue that Laethys is a fight you can blunder through with incomplete understanding, in which case you're both wrong and unlikely to find many willing to agree with you on that point.

To attempt to argue that I do not understand Laethys because we have not killed Maelforge shows your general lack of understanding. You are trying to equate attendance issues with ability and understanding which is disingenuous at best but what I have come to expect from you. Keep thinking you're throwing out zingers and cackliatng on voice com with your guildies but in the end you look the fool to any informed and objective observer. The only person hiding is you, behind your poorly constructed arguments.

[Vioarr]

That's really the bottom line to me: People up on their pedestals of victory can talk all they want about how you can handle every situation as it occurs, but that requires a strict combination of experience and preparation that leaves little room for human error.

It's easy for people to sit there and theorycraft about what people could do but coming from a guild that to my knowledge has not even released a video while preaching to everyone else that they are doing it wrong lends no credibility to those claims.

I have killed this boss and I contend that "RNG" exists in this fight and no amount of "lolubad" arguments from my stalkers will change the fact that we killed it, did so significantly ahead of enrage, and released a video of our first kill. I have a leg to stand on in this argument.

All I hear from these "there is no RNG" people is "I can argue semantics" or "I think I'm a better player/guild than you are." The first is just an attempt to redefine a commonly accepted definition of a term to reframe the argument and the second is presumptuous considering all of the variables that cannot be quantified, much less by a far removed outsider of the context required to reasonably take such a position.

[lgw]

The age of the achievement has nothing to do with it, the point is to demonstrate that I obviously have an understanding of the fight to be able to complete it unless you mean to argue that Laethys is a fight you can blunder through with incomplete understanding, in which case you're both wrong and unlikely to find many willing to agree with you on that point.

And yet you complain about death to RNG:

My current favorite is orb on you cleaving adds with barely enough time to get to the stack if you react instantly only to have shockwave snare you just short of the stack as the orb hits taking out a handful of people that suck at stacking.

Champs have at least two ways to deal with that kind of movement problem, and the orbs don't happen out of the blue.

Double gift is a close second, the timing on it rarely lines up so they hit right after drains during a storm but when it does, Laethys makes it rain.

This can be avoided entirely.
The only thing that is annoying is the bug that she sometimes continues to cast SoT even when at 0 power.

Double shockwave is cool for cleaving warriors also.

There is a whole number of ways to avoid double shockwaves or dying to them.

In general Laethys has some annoyingly fickle tuned mechanics, but none are unavoidable or cause automatic death. It's a valid choice to ignore some of them using a BR or risking an edge case wipe, and we do that as well... but I'd never blame our deliberate choice on RNG.

PS: Yes, I know my guild hasn't downed Laethys. Yet I have seen more than enough of the fight to understand the mechanics, and also to admit that the issues that prevent us from that kill are entirely based on our performance (in the widest sense) and not on RNG.

[intrinsc]

I sense a lock incoming.

[Primalthirst]

I sense a lock incoming.

There seems to be a lot of that recently. It's a shame everyone can't get along.

[Vioarr]

This entire waste of a conversation has turned into a debate over the definition of RNG. Fine, I will play that game. For people to say that because someone chooses to react to RNG one way versus another that it ceases to be RNG is mind boggling. If everything in the fight happened exactly the same every attempt then people would be correct in saying that RNG does not exist. The fight is not the same every pull and the number of variables are such that it is unreasonable to expect 20 people to all react perfectly to all of them every time. So, people can "lolubad" all they want but this fight is the exception to the cutesy little crusade against RNG going on.

[Mayi]

Can't we all just get along?

You guys are arguing about different things. RNG people are arguing that there is randomness, in computing and the encounter. The other group is arguing that if your strat can't compensate for things that happen in the encounter, be them random or not, then it's a bad strategy and it's the strategy vs the randomness that's your issue.

They aren't mutually exclusive points.

[Vioarr]

Can't we all just get along?

You guys are arguing about different things. RNG people are arguing that there is randomness, in computing and the encounter. The other group is arguing that if your strat can't compensate for things that happen in the encounter, be them random or not, then it's a bad strategy and it's the strategy vs the randomness that's your issue.

They aren't mutually exclusive points.

There is an overlap you are missing in that I am also arguing our strat is not inferior given all of the factors and presenting the counter point that the fight has so many mechanics that the potential outcomes are too numerous to expect someone to react to them all perfectly without a vast amount of experience on the fight even given potential variance in individual ability.

Our strategy is a balance between maximizing DPS and reducing the impact of RNG, I contend that most guilds will have trouble meeting either enrage by focusing solely on the latter as has been suggested. It is a moot point to try and argue that it is possible to avoid these situations if people dismiss the likelihood that overall success may not possible by doing so.

[barrysneaks]

Any probable kills before the new loot night rolls around?

[Mayi]

There is an overlap you are missing in that I am also arguing our strat is not inferior given all of the factors and presenting the counter point that the fight has so many mechanics that the potential outcomes are too numerous to expect someone to react to them all perfectly without a vast amount of experience on the fight even given potential variance in individual ability.

I agree with you. The other dudes are arguing strat can mitigate the RNG and I agree to an extent. I think no matter what strategy you adopt Laethys won't be an encounter you one shot every week until the expansion. It's not an encounter like Matron, Murdantex, etc... where once you know the strategy and execute properly it's a guaranteed one shot.

[PFalcon]

Random elements of a fight must be accounted for by strategy instead of written off. Assume it will happen and plan for it. Blaming RNG is poor judgment until it's clear that bad outcomes can't be dealt with.

It's just a question of how, and is that how reasonable to ask of raiders.

Until some interesting bugs are fixed or more teams beat this fight, the verdict is still out on whether it's unreasonable.

Don't take people's words that it's avoidable though. They won't tell you the whole story for a fact here. If your team is getting wiped, your team's assessment is just as important as theirs is to raid tuning. Probably moreso.

The "top" raid teams won't tell you the actual reason this fight RNG is no big deal. That is the saddest part about this raid tier, and it'll always be remembered badly once it's over.

[Sebb]

Random elements of a fight must be accounted for by strategy instead of written off. Assume it will happen and plan for it. Blaming RNG is poor judgment until it's clear that bad outcomes can't be dealt with.

It's just a question of how, and is that how reasonable to ask of raiders.

Until some interesting bugs are fixed or more teams beat this fight, the verdict is still out on whether it's unreasonable.

Don't take people's words that it's avoidable though. They won't tell you the whole story for a fact here. If your team is getting wiped, your team's assessment is just as important as theirs is to raid tuning. Probably moreso.

The "top" raid teams won't tell you the actual reason this fight RNG is no big deal. That is the saddest part about this raid tier, and it'll always be remembered badly once it's over.

It was just a joke people. A joke. There's no reason we needed multiple pages debating RNG.


Can we instead talk about how Laethys was the game's best tuned DPS check while simultaneously being the game's worst designed encounter?

[Vioarr]

It was just a joke people. A joke. There's no reason we needed multiple pages debating RNG.


Can we instead talk about how Laethys was the game's best tuned DPS check while simultaneously being the game's worst designed encounter?

I don't think it was poorly designed, but I'm also not a mage.