ID Player Testing Failed

[Gyle]

Who was talking to you? I wasn't.

Oh, well then my apologies.

[Guipex]

It's not a troll, I genuinely cannot tell if you fully understand the meaning of what you post.

How did the Rusila bug break the game. Some guilds got a few piece of loot they otherwise wouldn't have? People will forget about this just like they forgot about Greenscale having 1.8 million HP and being completely cheese for ssN, in fact you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. People claimed that was gamebreaking also, that was over a year ago and this isn't even the last boss in the instance.

It is reasonable to assume a dev would have noticed if a rogue tank had reflected millions of damage from a single ability during testing, very few guilds use a rogue for a main tank and a very small number of guilds tested Rusila. How can you take this information and think that testers do not care about finding bugs is the most reasonable conclusion. It makes no sense. You should be flattered that I first assumed your flawed English was to blame and not the next most likely cause.

Bloodstalker is the highest rogue dps atm and has Rift Barrier, so should work as well.

Maklamos fight is completely bugged. Impossible that nobody found even one of those bugs in the entire test period.

And btw, the discussion isnt about our language. If you can't argue with respect, you're just more one troll, like many others, which is typical in forums.

Anonymous: "Dammit, he is right, i cant argue anymore. What should i do? ........ Oh yes, troll time"

[Sharpshooter]

Well , tanking balance is a separate discussion , but the logic of my P.S was that even if there was a test to see what happens when boss is tanked with 3 different types of tanks then during rogue tank test the issue would be revealed.
In testing it is always easy to call out something that was missed during testing process and call it trivial and something that is the first thing that should be tested so I won't go much further into this.
Every person has his own insights of what should be tested and how it should be done.
I would probably add such a test as a part of boss sanity/functional testing.
Some types of tanks are always better than others on different encounters and have their own advantages and disadvantages, but whether something should be doable by all types of tanks? I think so since Trion want all tank classes to be viable according to their public announcements.

[bctrainers]

So, what I have read thus far, people would like something like this in the future to be more open about testing...

• A NPC in meridian or sanctum.
• This NPC would give the raid leader the ability to teleport their raid into a new raid, whether it be 10 or 20 man.
• The zone would be hard locked to the zone in site, and boss rooms only.
• Once the raid group has ported into the raid zone, another NPC would appear. This NPC would give the raid leader the choice once more to teleport to a certain boss to test it.

...yeah, I don't like that idea - keep it as it is.



In summary, there will be bugs/issues, there will be issues that went unseen by the focus groups. I honestly do not see the issue. Yes, some instances were not "fully" tested by another-ones eyes, but hey - it was still tested in the time allotted to the focus test groups. Trion has milestones / deadlines to hit, just like many other companies out there.

A few of those listed issues/bugs in the original post are minor bugs or the personal QoL mindset, in my opinion anyways.

[Beckmann]

I just don't understand how, regardless of testing methodology, bugs like the adds on the mini before Ituziel disappearing get missed. Or the fight not resetting. It's the kind of thing that you automatically see if you have ever entered the instance. Maklamos is almost as unforgivable.

I also don't understand how the first two minis are tuned, they are basically trash pulls. Is this really intended?

[Guipex]

Dev1: How much would be a reasonable damage for a skill that should instant kill the target?
Dev2: Around 20 million i guess.
Dev1: Hm.... and maybe any reflect mechanic could be a problem for this amount?
Dev2: Definitely not...

[Sharpshooter]

I just don't understand how, regardless of testing methodology, bugs like the adds on the mini before Ituziel disappearing get missed. Or the fight not resetting. It's the kind of thing that you automatically see if you have ever entered the instance. Maklamos is almost as unforgivable.

I also don't understand how the first two minis are tuned, they are basically trash pulls. Is this really intended?

Maybe the testing was done in a too "sandbox-ish" environment which didn't allow these bugs to be shown

[Gyle]

The tone of the OP is to make it seem like it is a total failure. That is the binary speaking, by using the word FAIL. ID has not failed at all.

This is true, my wording was chosen very carefully to communicate a very specific message. Everything i ever write or say is. I would love to have made a post exploring the entire situation in great depth and from all angles, but have you ever tried to have a nuanced discussion on these boards?


The only way to do so is over the course of pages of response. If you put too much info into an OP then people either just skim it or don't read it at all. You get in, make your point, and get out. The unmentioned or unexplored aspects of the situation invariably come out over the next few pages of discussion.


I understand the point you make about software development never being bug free. I have done a limited amount of programming myself, and from just the little bit i have done i can appreciate the sheer complexity of the task. I suppose I can't fully understand it, having never done programming at that level, but i can certainly empathize with its difficulty.


My intent is not to call into question the programmers or the testers. It is more to try and highlight the unintended consequences of the manner in which testing was instituted and state my opinion that what was gained by the player testing was not sufficient to justify said consequences. A different approach is going to have to be used in the future IMO.

[Hawkmoon0028]

Whew! kept my head down long enough in the first 5 pages of mudslinging to make it here! Man, it's a jungle out there....

Going back a few pages, I gotta agree with Muffin- I would LOVE to see Trion drop a few bucks into developing additional raiding resources of their own (read as: internal resources). I think that some of the great things about this new content were completely overshadowed by name calling and massive smearing campaigns in the forums about player testing, advantages, world firsts, strat guides, etc.

All the negativity surrounding the instance(see above)- not to mention about the instance itself(too easy, buggy, etc.)- took away any possible good that might have come about. A great deal of this headache might have been warded off if Trion had developed and tested the entire instance in-house, and kept the entire playerbase in the dark.

[puddin]

My favorite thing about these discussions is that the same people claiming that testers "had ID on farm for months" want to have free access to dungeon encounters with no devs watching (because it would be impossible for them to watch everyone). So instead of having 20ish guilds knowing pieces of bosses or only one or two fights, they would rather have the entire community knowing every fight. Just look at WoW...there are strat videos releasing of PTS content.

Even if we were limited to one hour, do you know how much more progression would happen in that hour without a dev resetting a fight after the first phase multiple times?

People seem to forget how quickly dungeons like Black Temple were cleared when they went live, and I promise you that WoW's PTS open testing had PLENTY to do with that. It was only after full hardmode-filled instances were released in WotLK that anyone was even remotely slowed down, and many times that's only because the hardmodes were tuned impossibly.

Basically, people want to have their cake and eat it, too. Internal QA cannot be used for tuning because they simply don't perform at the level of players, so you are left with two options: The entire community knowing all the content and racing to see who can execute first, or select guilds that have already shown their progression prowess tuning specific phases/fights at a level acceptable of the title "challenging", while still keeping the majority of the instance a mystery and true progression race.

Impossible expectations and poorly thought out solutions do nothing to change the reality of the situation. Selected player testing is the lesser of two evils.

[totinhas]

Why, god, oh why you guys care so much about server/world first


i know some guilds who wiped over and over to kill each conclave to get server first message, and i was like, wtf?
i bet that those are the same who buy and sell back each plaque item so he can also get all the firsts. lmao


and about testing content, where is the rift test team? >_<

[Vioarr]

Bloodstalker is the highest rogue dps atm and has Rift Barrier, so should work as well.

Maklamos fight is completely bugged. Impossible that nobody found even one of those bugs in the entire test period.

And btw, the discussion isnt about our language. If you can't argue with respect, you're just more one troll, like many others, which is typical in forums.

Anonymous: "Dammit, he is right, i cant argue anymore. What should i do? ........ Oh yes, troll time"

I'm not inclined to tolerate someone that just dropped out of nowhere to lecture me on topics which I am clearly more informed. You assume Bloodstalker was the highest DPS when this was tested, but know nothing. You imply that this bug was found but ignored by developers yet despite the fact that this makes absolutely no sense you refuse to produce any supporting argument as to motive.

Maklamos is a complex fight from a developer's standpoint. Your assumption that any of these bugs existed during testing is just that, an assumption. You have absolutely no concept of the creation process for a boss, how these encounters are changed and tuned, or how they are tested yet you are quick to open your mouth and spew forth the bile that your brain is incapable of filtering with logic and reason.

You are right, language doesn't matter in this case, you are simply incapable of carrying on in this discussion yet are also oblivious to that fact.

[Vioarr]

I just don't understand how, regardless of testing methodology, bugs like the adds on the mini before Ituziel disappearing get missed. Or the fight not resetting. It's the kind of thing that you automatically see if you have ever entered the instance. Maklamos is almost as unforgivable.

I also don't understand how the first two minis are tuned, they are basically trash pulls. Is this really intended?

These bosses are fluid. Guilds don't test them then the devs walk away forever, they tinker and change things based on the data gathered during testing. Obviously sometimes those changes create new issues and sometimes those changes happen after that portion of the encounter has been tested at length. People want competition, this method of testing allows for that by breaking up encounters by phases, not allowing anyone to see all encounters, etc. This has been talked about at length and should be common knowledge by now for anyone that deserves a seat in this discussion. People act like guilds roll into the instance and clear it with dev help then pack up and go home.

In Never Never Land the devs have enough time to create fights, test completely internally with a Q&A team of the best players in the world, make all changes discovered needed in testing, the rest of the game doesn't change at all, the bosses are finalized and retested, the rest of the game still hasn't changed at all, the instance goes live, the rest of the game still hasn't changed at all, people cry about all sorts of other bugs that have been ignored for weeks but are ignored for fear of any change having an impact on a raid boss encounter and waking the sleeping babes on the forums. Those masters of hindsight and assumption that clearly command a better understanding of the complexity of developing an MMO than those that actually develop it or those that play it more and have a more extensive background in the genre.

I am really at a loss as to how people are incapable of comprehending the situation here. It's like talking to a gaggle of hysterical women.

[Guipex]

I'm not inclined to tolerate someone that just dropped out of nowhere to lecture me on topics which I am clearly more informed. You assume Bloodstalker was the highest DPS when this was tested, but know nothing. You imply that this bug was found but ignored by developers yet despite the fact that this makes absolutely no sense you refuse to produce any supporting argument as to motive.

Maklamos is a complex fight from a developer's standpoint. Your assumption that any of these bugs existed during testing is just that, an assumption. You have absolutely no concept of the creation process for a boss, how these encounters are changed and tuned, or how they are tested yet you are quick to open your mouth and spew forth the bile that your brain is incapable of filtering with logic and reason.

You are right, language doesn't matter in this case, you are simply incapable of carrying on in this discussion yet are also oblivious to that fact.

I don't assume Bloodstalker was the highest DPS. Bloostalker IS the highest DPS, its a fact, indisputable.
I didn't said that this bug was found but ignore by devs. I said that they didn't tested enough to release.
Set 20million as damage of one skill, is completely non-sense, while just 200k would be more than enough to 1shot any player and avoid any reflect exploits.

Oh soh Maklamos fight was perfect in pts? All those bugs, almost 80% of fight, just appeared on live? Obvious... Just incredible. If you do changes after tests, you must test again. And if your tests dont allow you to detect those problems, you should change your methodology, coz its not working as intended.

You still cant argue, coz u're wrong and u know it, but im sure u gonna troll again, coz that's all you can do.

RIFT is a good game, but their test process don't work, sorry. And your attempts to defend them is simple pathetic.

Btw, welcome to ignore list troll. Less one.

[Byona]

I don't assume Bloodstalker was the highest DPS. Bloostalker IS the highest DPS, its a fact, indisputable.
I didn't said that this bug was found but ignore by devs. I said that they didn't tested enough to release.
Set 20million as damage of one skill, is completely non-sense, while just 200k would be more than enough to 1shot any player and avoid any reflect exploits.

Oh soh Maklamos fight was perfect in pts? All those bugs, almost 80% of fight, just appeared on live? Obvious... Just incredible. If you do changes after tests, you must test again. And if your tests dont allow you to detect those problems, you should change your methodology, coz its not working as intended.

You still cant argue, coz u're wrong and u know it, but im sure u gonna troll again, coz that's all you can do.

RIFT is a good game, but their test process don't work, sorry. And your attempts to defend them is simple pathetic.

Btw, welcome to ignore list troll. Less one.

Sigh, if only there was no NDA.. enough with the assumptions already, we cannot argue with you because of NDA, not because you are right..