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Thread: What happened to progression?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default What happened to progression?

    I have been playing rift almost since launch (about 12 months), two weeks after the game came out. I remember there are a time when there was an actual progression line and you had to work to even be geared enough for t2 dungeons. Took me a good amount of time and effort to be gsb ready about 11 months ago. Once you would turn 50 you would be in greens and blues of course. Then you would do regular high level dungeons such as ap and cc to get some more gear for t1 expert dungeons. Once you became t1 geared you would move up to t2 expert dungeons, and boy were they hard. After that, of course was gsb which was the only raid instance out at the time. Once GP came out, after t2 experts you would do that and then gsb.

    Now you turn 50 and get expert dungeons and are even able to get not just raid marks for raid gear if you wish but you may choose t1 raid, t2 raid, or t3 raid marks. You can take huge leaps and skip a quite a big of progression. In addition, gsb used to actually be a challenge. Pugging it was not an option that all, and not just because there weren't as many geared peopel that early on. If there were, it still wouldn't have happened, at least not with a full clear. Gsb/ros has become a joke and HK is getting to the point where it will probably be pretty pugable soon.

    If you start an alt or even just start from scratch, you can easily be doing (and clearing) t1 raids pretty quickly with little effort.

    The point being, there was once a linear path of progression. You used to actually have to work for things. For a while now, it has seemed as though trion just wants to hand things out with minimal effort. With patch 1.8 they took this to a whole new level. At the same time as the launch of ID they put in the new t3 raid marks as a choice for the expert dungeon bonuses, mm dungeons as well as the raid weeklys. Non-raiders can get about as many Infernal Marks at this time as most raiding guilds without even steping foot in ID. When they did this to HK, I wasn't exactly enthusiastic about it however it had been out for a good while already so it wasn't as bad.

    Ohh how I miss the days of EQ1 back in 2000 when you would actually have to work for what you had. Things were earned, not given. Something that is not the case in rift.

    I would like your thoughts/opinions on two important questions:
    1) Has Trion ruined progression?
    2) Is Trion handing things out with too little effort?

  2. #2
    Rift Master Beringer's Avatar
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    I have heard that people who raid says it requires skill. As far as I can tell, this "skill" equates to memorizing a script. If you don't have the script memorized you will die - as in insta-kill. If you (and everyone else in the group/raid) have the script memorized, you will succeed.

    So this means that after a time, a lot of people will have the script memorized and the content is now easy. Your memory of the "glory days" have become nostalgia.

    Or is it that the gear requirements have been diminished? Well, as is always the case, the latest and greatest of raid content will always be the hardest and the old content will be nerfed so that new people can get to the new content quicker. That is how things work.

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  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Default Skill/Nerfs

    Beringer
    No one here said it takes skill...or at least I didn't

    I said it takes time and effort. "The script", as you put it, takes time to memorize to the point where you can execude it well enough. Even getting geared up to be in the raid takes effort, not to mention acutal progression through it. However I am saying it now, it does take some skill. Even if players are very geared, they may be putting out poor numbers. A player who isn't very geared however but knows his class well maybe putting out more impressive numbers.

    I believe you are thinking of a guild that has the raid on farm. Yes, when it is on farm, you need no skill because if you suck you can simply be carried by the other players who do what they are suppose to do.

    If you played EQ1 back then you would understand :P

    Yes, I understand that after awhile things get nerfed so players may progress quicker to get to new content. I am perfectly fine with that. However things shouldnt get nerfed to the ponit where people who have never been in a raid before and are actually at the gear level they should be should be able to clear the instance their first time there. Furthermore, there should be a clear line of progression that may get nerfed to get through quicker. Right now that line of progression is broken.
    Last edited by Chrono2050; 04-20-2012 at 08:00 PM.

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    Champion BKR2879's Avatar
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    The casual folks want endgame gear without doing endgame raids and Trion is letting them have it.

    I don't agree with it and think ID marks should only be from ID bosses, but at this point Trion isn't going to change it.
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    Champion of Telara Sargonnas_KoA's Avatar
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    I didnt mind when they put Greater Marks into dungeons because HK had been out a while already.

    I dont agree with Infernal Marks being available to non-raiders on day 1

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    The reason is simple. If you still had to gear up through heroics, then t1 raids, t2, then t3 by having to raid those for drops, it would discourage new players from playing and it would discourage people with alts to play. Just think how disparaging it would be if you hit 50 but knew you would have to do old raids starting with the first one and moving up through each tier for a few months just to be able to have the gear for the most recent raid out there. Would you want to go through that every time you got a level 50 character? Do you think this game would attract new players if they knew they were so far behind the other players that they would never catch up so they could experience the content? As more and more raids get released, that person would be that much further behind and everyone would be that much further ahead making it hard for the new person to even find a group.

    So to sum up, the reason they do it this way is to make sure there isn't a huge barrier for newer players when trying to catch up in terms of gear. While I'm sure you probably don't think it's fair, you just have to remember that when new content is released, it pretty much makes all previous gear obsolete to ensure players keep playing so they can get geared again. Giving tokens for gear via heroics or other such means just allows people gear up as fast as possible so they can experience the newest content along with the veterans.

  7. #7
    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beringer View Post
    I have heard that people who raid says it requires skill. As far as I can tell, this "skill" equates to memorizing a script. If you don't have the script memorized you will die - as in insta-kill. If you (and everyone else in the group/raid) have the script memorized, you will succeed.
    This is sort of true at a very high level of abstraction, but in reality, that's like saying that driving is just a matter of following a script; you just react to each event appropriately. Good raiders are making judgement calls and improvising, where bad raiders would just give up because something went off the script. Also, a lot of things aren't really insta-kill; you can have two or three seconds to react to an unexpected event, sometimes.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    @Beringer

    Raiding require skill? No. Talent? Absolutely. We all know people irl who can't multi-task well, who are slow on reaction time, get tunnel vision and simply do not coordinate well with others.

    Raiding is like many sports tbh. It requires coordination with others, situational awareness, the ability to multitask etc. Very few if any sports require skill across the board. They require talent. A skill can be taught a talent must have a seed there to be fostered.

    It always makes me laugh when people try to basically crap on something other people put time in effort into. It reminds me of the conversations I have had with some people about how cycling isn't a sport. Just a bunch of people that don't understand and who would rather troll what other people have worked to accomplish since they themselves can't be bothered.
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  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    If one tries to get T3 gear only from doing random expert, how many days does it require for the person to get one piece. How many months to get all pieces...

    I think it's fine as is.


    It's still progression.
    Just the way to progress has been changed, so that new players won't feel too far behind.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR2879 View Post
    The casual folks want endgame gear without doing endgame raids and Trion is letting them have it.

    I don't agree with it and think ID marks should only be from ID bosses, but at this point Trion isn't going to change it.
    i see it as more they are including as many as possible rather than them picking on the "pro" nerds
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  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    "What happened to progression? "

    The general problem with Rift is that despite it's young age it already suffers on some very old diseases.

    Those are usually rather common among the older generation of MMORPGS, but since Trion repeated alot of design choices which were proven to be mistakes years ago by other games, Rift got caught by old issues at very young age already.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched PORTERR's Avatar
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    Trion wants new people to enjoy the end game without being left out since majority is already raiding T2 and T3 now. I agree to that but giving them free ID marks is a really bad way of fixing that problem. New people see that there is no challenge in this game as it's been advertised and will leave, free loot lovers will stick around a bit longer but will get bored eventually and leave.
    What Trion should have done instead was to create T2 Raid equal 5 man instances with appropriate requirements as for HK or RotP and T3 Raid equal 5 mans with new Tier of raids incoming. Master mode is the same as T2s (expert dungeons) therefore i don't see the point in providing other than regular greater marks for that either. This way at least people wouldn't jump from fresh 50 to ID geared in a month or so.


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  13. #13
    Sword of Telara xxar's Avatar
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    The time investment required to skip hk and be ID viable via just tokens/dungeon is litterly months this was balanced by the cost per piece.

  14. #14
    DB1
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    I don't think people even do research b4 they go on a rant or they just go off what they are told. Has anyone even took the time to look at the amount of marks you need for one ID vendor piece? Hands alone is 80 marks it would take about 700+ marks to get a full set. You can only get 19 marks a week outside of ID. So at 19 marks a week and you need 700 for a full set it would take about 35 weeks for a full set w/o doing ID, that's 3 years lol. I'd say non raiders deserve a full ID set if they are willing to grind for 3 years...like come on people stop with the silly crap do your home work b4 posting QQ threads. What the 19 marks you get outside ID does is give a reason for geared HK raiders to run the old content...that's all. 19 extra marks aren't hurting the game in any way its actually helping the game.
    Last edited by DB1; 04-20-2012 at 11:16 PM.

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  15. #15
    DB1
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    Allowing these 19 marks only to be acquired outside raid only promote a healthy social Community because it gives you incentive to run the old content with new players gearing up. This not only helps new players but it keeps a more social community because it forces raiders, non raiders, noobies, and pros to all interact with one another. Even pvp'ers who want that extra piece or two to maximize their pvp set w/o having to raid.
    Last edited by DB1; 04-20-2012 at 11:28 PM.

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