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Thread: Why World Firsts mean nothing in ID...

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Why World Firsts mean nothing in ID...

    I spent a good portion of my time in MMORPG's chasing after world firsts because I'm a very competitive person. At least for me personally, I believe I'm the best at what I do, and if you truly believe you are the best, you go out and prove it. In MMORPG's, for players focused on raiding content, you try to get World Firsts. I was a core member of Afterlife for almost 7 years (until Nax 40 in WoW) and spent the majority of my time going after World Firsts, and I have quite a few of them to show for my efforts. A large portion of my disgust in WoW was over the release of AQ because it's a waste of time for players at the highest level, who like competing for world firsts, to have the competition tainted by a silly world event that caused the raid zone to be released at different times for different servers. However, many of the top guilds in WoW did not like that at all, and many spoke out against it because competitive people are generally on the same page. If you want to prove you are the best, it has to be done in a fair way on an equal playing field otherwise the accomplishments are meaningless so all of us competing for world firsts cared greatly about keeping the competition on equal footing.

    For ID, Trion decided to invite a select number of guilds to test the new raid content. This is absolutely disgusting to me because it essentially ruins the competition for world firsts in ID. Not only that, but the guilds that got the invite and took the unfair advantage (cheated), actually have the audacity to defend that position. Members of these top guilds are going around and justifying it, and acting like it's no big deal. As much as I argued with Furor on the forums, there is absolutely no way the skilled guilds from my day would've been even remotely ok with this. As much as I disliked Furor, you can be sure there would've been an update on his page blasting Sony if this had happened in Everquest. Why? Because we actually CARED about the competition and wanted to EARN our world firsts, not cheat our way to world firsts. If I'm going to spend time to compete at the highest level, I want it to actually mean something. The top guilds of my day were confident in their skill and ability to beat other guilds and would've been absolutely disgusted and pissed off at Trion for ruining the competition by giving a select few guilds an unfair advantage. The fact the top guilds in Rift are not even crying out against it, but are actually justifying and defending the decision is just sad and shows they would just rather cheat, then have to earn something.

    The primary "justifications" for why they don't think it's an unfair advantage are even more absurd. There have been many encounters that were tested solely by an internal test team that came out just fine. Just as well, there are also encounters that have been overly tested and yet were still buggy. There really is no way to guarantee all content will work as intended regardless of how much or how little testing you do, things still will go wrong. However, if you do bring players, there is no reason whatsoever to bring select guilds granting them an unfair advantage over others. First off, developers should know the DPS, healing and tanking capabilities of the players regardless of any testing. If they added the skills into the game, and they added the gear into the game, and they made the formulas that devise the numbers, then they should know those aspect of the raid regardless of any testing from players so it's nothing but a load of stinky stuff if you think it requires top guilds to test the content. There are tons of bosses that have come out just fine, and properly tuned, without top guilds testing them in the past. Just coincidences I guess. Primarily what needs testing is bugs and making sure the abilities all work correctly, and that simply requires players as on a test server they can adjust any other numbers, or even parts of the encounter to run the scripts. Considering they can give people gear, give people planar experience, and even adjust damage from players to fit the DPS requirements of the raid, why would they need players from top guilds to test these raids? Answer: They don't which is why many games have tested their hardest raid content internally to keep the competition fair because top guilds, at least the ones that don't like cheating and like to earn their accomplishments, don't like it and used to speak out against it.

    It's also a bit presumptuous to assume that the guilds who were at the top in HK are still the best guilds. Players come and go, leadership changes, and subsequently some guilds get better, some get worse but to assume everything would be the same is ridiculous. My guild had the world first on Majordomo, and World 2nd on Ragnaros, and yet in the next raid zone we didn't even get a server first because a guild that was not even top 100 in Molten Core, all of a sudden was a top 10 worldwide guild in Blackwing Lair and we had regressed some because we lost our top 4 tanks during the downtime between Molten Core and Blackwing Lair. In the next raid zone, we passed them back up and got another world first in Naxx so it just shows that it's silly to screw quality competition on new encounters based on past results which should be obvious. If we would've gotten to cheat and see all of Blackwing Lair early simply because we were top 2 worldwide on the final 2 bosses of Molten Core many months prior, I'm pretty sure the outcomes would've been different. It's silly to think that the top guilds in HK would automatically be the top guilds in ID, all that happened was that they cheated and now have a very distinct advantage over guilds that might've improved tremendously after HK, and could've competed for world firsts if the cheating had not taken place. Instead of competing against all of the top guilds, the guilds that got to cheat are primarily only competing against themselves since they are the only ones on the same footing. That's why the top guilds should be crying out against Trion ruining the competition, and not defending it because how can you say you really earned a World First when there is now no way to know if you would've been able to obtain it without cheating? This entire situation is just horrible for everyone involved, I just can't believe the top guilds are actually defending it but I guess that just shows the tragic decline in skill that top guilds have now compared to top guilds in the past since they don't seem to be that confident in their ability to get world firsts without cheating and don't mind tainting the competition.

    I don't have a bone to pick in the race, and could care less about the results as I've already done my time competing for world firsts for many years and no longer care to devote that much time to do it anymore, it just disgusts me that the supposed top guilds of Rift are fine with cheating the competition. Just makes me proud that I got to compete against quality competition like Furor and Tigole, and not what exists now.

    ~Mippo

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Iv said the same thing. If anyone thinks world firsts mean anything with this raid they are silly. Guilds have already been doing the content for some time now and either have figured out, or have been handed the strats. Maybe they have even beaten the raid already.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Warbs's Avatar
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    I believe all Guilds they invite to test the Raid on the test shards are the ones that are actually in the race, they choose the best geared guilds for it so only those who would have a chance at ID World Firsts are the ones testing ID.


    *Didin't read all your post only skimmed across it*
    Last edited by Warbs; 04-17-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker Treig's Avatar
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    I'd personally like to thank all players who contirbute time to the PTS to improve future releases for the rest of us.

    I'm not mad that several of the progression raiders got invited to help test, I thank them for beating their head against a potentially buggy wall AND new mechanics, etc.

    It sounds like you didn't want to be invited to the PTS to test in advance of release, but that is YOUR position, others WANT to help make the game better.

    I guess you and I should agree to disagree on this as your post seems negative and whiny intentionally and I'm just happy those bugs and difficult mechanics in ID Raids, etc. will be smoothed out a bit before I get there.

    Cheers, and thanks again to all the folks helping Trion test on the PTS.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbs View Post
    I believe all Guilds they invite to test the Raid on the test shards are the ones that are actually in the race, they choose the best geared guilds for it so only those who would have a chance at ID World Firsts are the ones testing ID.


    *Didin't read all your post only skimmed across it*
    Not even remotely true, many guilds don't have a raid schedule that works with the testing times.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Warbs and Treig speak the truth.

    Voodoo (US-Defiant, world 1st Akylios) is currently seeking exceptional rogue and mage applicants. Please check our recruitment thread for more information.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabolicWeapon View Post
    Warbs and Treig speak the truth.
    far from it, for warbs at least

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    world first are a joke

    content gets release in NA first before EU so NA shards will always get the world firsts

    also as said only the guilds that got a invite stand any chance at getting them

    during the phases for world event the update was changed from wednesday to thursday i strongly believe that this was down to the QQing of the NA shards that the EU got the content first and hence the world firsts i see NO other reason to make the change
    Last edited by max42; 04-17-2012 at 02:27 PM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple ZirconSTC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treig View Post
    I'd personally like to thank all players who contirbute time to the PTS to improve future releases for the rest of us.

    I'm not mad that several of the progression raiders got invited to help test, I thank them for beating their head against a potentially buggy wall AND new mechanics, etc.

    It sounds like you didn't want to be invited to the PTS to test in advance of release, but that is YOUR position, others WANT to help make the game better.

    I guess you and I should agree to disagree on this as your post seems negative and whiny intentionally and I'm just happy those bugs and difficult mechanics in ID Raids, etc. will be smoothed out a bit before I get there.

    Cheers, and thanks again to all the folks helping Trion test on the PTS.
    This

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbs View Post
    I believe all Guilds they invite to test the Raid on the test shards are the ones that are actually in the race, they choose the best geared guilds for it so only those who would have a chance at ID World Firsts are the ones testing ID.


    *Didin't read all your post only skimmed across it*
    As I said in my post, my guild had the world first on Majordomo, and world 2nd on Ragnaros and yet in the next raid zone we didn't even get a server first because a guild on our server that was not even top 100 in Molten Core, was top 10 worldwide in Blackwing Lair. They improved drastically between the raid zones, and we had lost our top 4 tanks. In the next raid zone, we beat them again in AQ then we got another world first in Naxx. It's absolutely nothing but a false assumption that the same guilds who finished high in HK (the ones who got invited), would automatically be the ones competing for world firsts in ID because you're ignoring any possible regression in the top guilds, or improvements in other guilds.

    By that same logic, why even hold the competitions? How many Super Bowl winners have we had in recent years that didn't even make the playoffs the next season? By your logic, they all should've instantly been contenders and we should just invite every team from last year's playoffs to this year's playoffs because they are the only ones in the race.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    By that same logic, why even hold the competitions? How many Super Bowl winners have we had in recent years that didn't even make the playoffs the next season? By your logic, they all should've instantly been contenders and we should just invite every team from last year's playoffs to this year's playoffs because they are the only ones in the race.
    That is the most illogical comparison I've seen for this so far. They don't let teams enter the superbowl with a 10 win lead just because they won last season. And when it comes to the finale, both teams are facing each other on an even playing ground. To make the comparison even more ridiculous, super bowl teams compete against other, they don't both go off to separate fields and fight training dummies who always do the exact same thing every time you go against them. Raids are against scripted encounters, not other people. These encounters are always the same and having information on the encounters puts you at an enormous advantage over others.

    But I'm pretty sure you already realize how illogical you were being and were just trying to be funny or something, so good job making me reply.
    Last edited by Cammyle; 04-17-2012 at 02:44 PM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Warbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    As I said in my post, my guild had the world first on Majordomo, and world 2nd on Ragnaros and yet in the next raid zone we didn't even get a server first because a guild on our server that was not even top 100 in Molten Core, was top 10 worldwide in Blackwing Lair. They improved drastically between the raid zones, and we had lost our top 4 tanks. In the next raid zone, we beat them again in AQ then we got another world first in Naxx. It's absolutely nothing but a false assumption that the same guilds who finished high in HK (the ones who got invited), would automatically be the ones competing for world firsts in ID because you're ignoring any possible regression in the top guilds, or improvements in other guilds.

    By that same logic, why even hold the competitions? How many Super Bowl winners have we had in recent years that didn't even make the playoffs the next season? By your logic, they all should've instantly been contenders and we should just invite every team from last year's playoffs to this year's playoffs because they are the only ones in the race.
    The competiton you speak of is all player created, payers/guilds are automatically entering themselves into this.It is not a competition Trion created just a competition all in players minds...So in theory you are angry at a competition that has been created by yourself.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    It's a necessary evil, most likely.

    HK took a few weeks to get the instance sorted - while this might bork the world first acheesements it'll probably make a much better experience for the vast majority of players just wanting bug-free fun.

    (I don't mean anything sarcastic by acheesement - I've just used that slang since WoW because you'd sneeze and get 3 of them.)
    Currently playing Beermaid lvl 65 War

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple THRiLL KiLL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treig View Post
    I'd personally like to thank all players who contirbute time to the PTS to improve future releases for the rest of us.

    I'm not mad that several of the progression raiders got invited to help test, I thank them for beating their head against a potentially buggy wall AND new mechanics, etc.

    It sounds like you didn't want to be invited to the PTS to test in advance of release, but that is YOUR position, others WANT to help make the game better.

    I guess you and I should agree to disagree on this as your post seems negative and whiny intentionally and I'm just happy those bugs and difficult mechanics in ID Raids, etc. will be smoothed out a bit before I get there.

    Cheers, and thanks again to all the folks helping Trion test on the PTS.
    well said!!

    /close thread.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer rantology's Avatar
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    Rift is such a small MMO compared to others I doubt they would be able to produce content w/o guilds testing it. I agree with your point, I would rather have completely polished content released solely by Trion so everyone could start on the same fair, blank slate but I don't think that's even possible. They need the top raiding guilds to test content because they have no QA/internal testers of their own to my knowledge. Even blizzard has guilds from live servers test content for them, don't they?

    IMO if you want true, skill based competition the MMO market is the last place you should look.
    afk tera.

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