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Thread: ID difficulty

  1. #1
    Ascendant mistacrowley420's Avatar
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    Default ID difficulty

    Was looking over this site and one thing caught my attention. The way it is worded if you read it sounds like they are lowering the difficulty in the raiding aspect. This post is not to QQ or complain about the casuals ruining raiding, I just saw it and felt like it needed a little attention from the community; since not everybody reads these sites.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04...ks-about-rift/

    Sorry if this is in another thread, I do not wish to reiterate info.

  2. #2
    Telaran Safonz's Avatar
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    http://www.riftjunkies.com/2012/04/1...ontent-in-1-8/

    Read this article. If you are a serious endgamer you can pretty much see the writing on the wall. If this is really the way the devs are thinking, I don't see myself playing this game much longer.

    1) No more raid wipe mechanics
    2) Gating content so guilds don't have to "attempt bosses they aren't geared for"
    3) Lets not get guildmates "mad at eachother"
    4) Lets go ULTRA Casual!

  3. #3
    Ascendant mistacrowley420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safonz View Post
    http://www.riftjunkies.com/2012/04/1...ontent-in-1-8/

    Read this article. If you are a serious endgamer you can pretty much see the writing on the wall. If this is really the way the devs are thinking, I don't see myself playing this game much longer.

    1) No more raid wipe mechanics
    2) Gating content so guilds don't have to "attempt bosses they aren't geared for"
    3) Lets not get guildmates "mad at eachother"
    4) Lets go ULTRA Casual!
    It's kinda what i'm afraid of... I want ID to save some common sense to complete it.
    Last edited by mistacrowley420; 04-12-2012 at 06:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safonz View Post
    http://www.riftjunkies.com/2012/04/1...ontent-in-1-8/

    Read this article. If you are a serious endgamer you can pretty much see the writing on the wall. If this is really the way the devs are thinking, I don't see myself playing this game much longer.

    1) No more raid wipe mechanics
    2) Gating content so guilds don't have to "attempt bosses they aren't geared for"
    3) Lets not get guildmates "mad at eachother"
    4) Lets go ULTRA Casual!
    1) I'm sure they'll still have them, maybe in the form of like a Johlen dps bomb thing, we probably won't see something like Sicaron contracts though. Possibly some dps checks throughout the encounter and mini soft enrage phases, who knows.

    2) Neutral on this.

    3) I'm sure they'll find creative ways to wipe. Instead of one person wiping (ie. contract), now 5 of you are at fault (ie. stack on each other due to some debuff/mechanic or spreading out).

    4) Just have to wait till ID comes out to judge, unless you tested some of ID already.

    That's how I see it anyway, could be wrong. But yeah, you probably are right that it could be made easier instead.
    Last edited by Adastra; 04-12-2012 at 06:42 AM.

  5. #5
    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    1) I'm sure they'll still have them, maybe in the form of like a Johlen dps bomb thing, we probably won't see something like Sicaron contracts though. Possibly some dps checks throughout the encounter and mini soft enrage phases, who knows.
    This was what I read from it. Sicaron was a real pain in the butt, and still is one of those bosses with next to no room for individual screw-ups. Grug too, all it takes is one person derping up, mis-reacting to breaths or aggroing a different tower to everyone else. I'm sure there were plenty of guilds carrying a couple of bad people through content that completely and utterly imploded on Sicaron and Grug where one person can completely ruin it for the whole raid.

    But if you take any individual responsibility out of encounters, how do you see who's underperforming and make the content genuinely challenging for people who can actually work together? If you have people constantly showing poor raid awareness there's only so far you can progress without them holding you back, and I'm really not happy about implementing a "no raider left behind" policy where anyone can bumble their way through encounters given enough time...

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer intrinsc's Avatar
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    All this means is that there won't be as many sicaron-like 1 shot mechanics for the raid and more wave-like individual responsibility, out-of-raid for the rest of the fight mechanics which won't ruin the raid but will ruin you. Stop labeling it as ultra casual because you can't analyze things right.
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  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara BrownsMageNerfDelivery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    All this means is that there won't be as many sicaron-like 1 shot mechanics for the raid and more wave-like individual responsibility, out-of-raid for the rest of the fight mechanics which won't ruin the raid but will ruin you. Stop labeling it as ultra casual because you can't analyze things right.
    This.

    I ultimately see it more as less in the "one person purges while one person cleanses while two people use specific debuffs while 4 people do the traditional rain dance or the raid wipes" sort of mechanics and more "if you specifically screw up, the raid will be hard pressed to pump out the necessary DPS to beat the enrage timer" type of fights.

    I'd honestly almost rather see pre-nerf Soulrender type stuff where you assigned people to kill various adds and either pushed out enough cleave damage onto Zilas or were overwhelmed.

    Then again, not really something one can analyze until ID goes live.

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  8. #8
    Rift Chaser laughingskull's Avatar
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    This raid is not going to be ultra casual.
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    Reducing single point failures is a huge improvement in quality of life. What you want are encounters where a single failure results in 1-3 deaths rather than insta-wipe. It recoverable, but 2 independent screws up iis basically a guaranteed wipe. Silgen is a perfect example of a difficult encounter without a raid wipe mechanic.
    Last edited by Carinae; 04-12-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    From a game design standpoint, Hartsman and Gershowitz are absolutely correct in their methods. Getting mad at individuals does not build teamwork or help down bosses. It creates rifts (hah) between players and, ultimately, guilds.

    Look at any guild that has progressed through the toughest content in the game, at, or close to, its peak of difficulty. If you were/are a part of such a guild, look at the leadership and the teamwork that your guild utilized - I guarantee you there was some cohesiveness present that helped to keep you together, whether it was excellent leadership or a longstanding core of friends.

    If you think that a raid needs a Sicaron mechanic to examine individual performance, you're missing the point of the exercise. Even the best players lag, get distracted, etc. I've messed up Sicaron bubble placement before because of FPS lag and I've studied the mechanics of that fight from top to bottom numerous times, in addition to understanding them in practice 100%.

    When a well-designed difficult encounter is completed, it should feel like a combination of each individual doing what they needed to do, in addition to the raid as a team doing what they needed to do. In fights like Sicaron, that are extremely unforgiving on mechanics, it's actually not difficult at all to carry a few DPS, or even carry a healer or two. For example, I could do 4k DPS or I could do 3.5k and at the end of the attempt, it may be moot because someone failed to react to a contract or missed a purge.

  11. #11
    Ascendant mistacrowley420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    All this means is that there won't be as many sicaron-like 1 shot mechanics for the raid and more wave-like individual responsibility, out-of-raid for the rest of the fight mechanics which won't ruin the raid but will ruin you. Stop labeling it as ultra casual because you can't analyze things right.
    I didn't label it, and I didn't mean to provoke people. I merely posted to see what people thought, sorry if you disagree.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    I just hope they keep Sicaron's contracts how they are for a long time, if we won't see anything that cool and adrenaline-fueling in the future.

    If a guild kicks someone out because they ran into another contract, that guild has prioritization issues. These mechanics are practically *meant* to cause accidental wipes.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 04-12-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  13. #13
    General of Telara Hawkmoon0028's Avatar
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    I'm cautiously optimistic about ID. The content, from what we've seen in videos and screens already released, is gorgeous. The fight mechanics that have been discussed (i.e., the boat that is a boss, etc.) sound intriguing.

    Gating
    As for the gating issue, I've got mixed feelings about this. I was never in WoW, so I don't have any previous experience with content being "locked" until someone else thinks we're ready for it... I was under the impression that's why the focus/hit stat mechanic existed??? "You need X focus or hit or this boss will avoid nearly everything you throw at them", type of deal? The idea, on paper, sounds a bit odd to me- hopefully it plays out well on live.

    Difficulty

    I worry, in some regards, that a week after ID comes out, you'll have casuals in the forums crying the content is way too hard. Sadly, Trion has (in my mind) a bad habit of listening a little too much to the QQ, and bending when they should remain firm.
    I, for one, would like to see content through to completion pre-nerf. At the same time, I don't want to look at mechanics in these fights and say to myself, "Really? That's it?" I want to be challenged. I want the content to make not only me as an individual- but my raid team as a whole- strive to be better players.

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  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Plavem's Avatar
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    I don't get what people are even remotely scared of here. They are not saying that they do not want content to be hard, what they are saying is that they do not what one person to be solely responsible for a win or loss.

    While I know this may be a blow to what some "hardcore" people are used to, personally I do not view it this way.

    Look at it like this, I don't care how good you think you are but sometimes real life happens.

    Here is an example:

    One night we were raiding Sicaron, before we had him on farm, we had him down to 17% it was looking very promising. When suddenly we hear over mumble, our guild leader, Dunsparrow getting robbed. Well needless to say he missed his purge and we wiped. He is also missing a stereo and some money. Maybe some pride too.

    He had something happen to him that was out of both the players hands and Trion's hands. Why should 19 other people be punished for his unintentional mistake.

    Everyone knows sometimes things happen that we can not control. Does this make a raid any easier? Sure. Does it make it so much easier that it would be face roll material? I doubt it.

    While they are possibly eliminating player one shot raid mechanics does this mean everything will be healed through? Or does it mean your main tank's death is the only way you will wipe? No of course not.

    There are only about 5 "hardcore" guilds in the whole world of rift. Others may claim they are hard core but the only reason they made it as far as they did is simply because the top 5 guilds posted videos making it easier for every other guild out there.

    With that being said. If the raid has to work as a group I find this is a challenge all alone. Finding 25 people to work together with in sync is one of the hardest things to do. Before you might of had to rely on one guildie to do something at a particular time, now you have to rely on all guildies to do the right thing at a particular time. Which to you is easier.

    In Negative Ghostrider we have this on going joke. One of the people who is a friend to the guild who rarely gets invited to raid is the guy who every time something targets a player we say to ourselves don't let it be him. While it is a joke with some truth to it, it sucks sometimes when he gets targeted and wipes the raid.

    We were trying to carry him, trying to show him a good time in Rift, and he ruined our good time. But, we are forgiving for the most part.

    However I don't feel completely eliminating him or people like him will do the game any good.

    In closing I hope everyone who agrees with this thread has a friend that just doesn't cut it. I wish you would wait until I.D. comes out to see what Trion's intent was. And if I can say anything about Trion ( which is also a reason I have stayed with them ) is they will fix things in a timely manner and rarely to make the same mistake twice.

    An example of this is 10 mans... Look how hard GP was when they first revealed it. Then they released DH. It was cake walk. Then they released ROTP and it was almost a mixture of the 2. It wasn't to hard but wasn't to easy, in my opinion it was perfect.

  15. #15
    Ascendant mistacrowley420's Avatar
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    Seems like I sent the wrong message out with my original post. There is already another thread out there talking about this please take it there, sorry for the controversy.

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