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Thread: A raider's case against PAs

  1. #1
    Rift Master
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    Default A raider's case against PAs

    I believe there are several problems with the current PA system. Granted I think something like this was needed to keep us rats pounding at the pellet machine, however, the implementation was poor and I believe it is slowly causing people to get frustrated and quit.
    1) “Forced” to play our mains
    Just to get this out of the way, Trion is obviously not “forcing” anyone to do anything. We can all log off if we choose. Yet for those of us who min/max or just want to be competitive with those around us, then yes we are forced to spend all of our time on our mains. If PAs could be shared amongst alts/mains somehow at least people could take a break from their main without feeling like they were missing out.
    2) New players
    Once new players find out they have to level to 50 and then level past 50 another 1034 times (for all tiers) it can seem pretty daunting if not impossible. Sure you can get a PA level in 45min to an hour doing your dailies but even if you average 1-2 PA an hour you will still be playing for 24 hours a day for 43 straight days to reach the max. If you login every single day just to do your dailies/weeklies (assuming about 3-4 PA per day) it will take you over 49 weeks to get the max (nearly a full year). This of course only takes into account the first 2 tiers of PA.. wait untill the 3rd tier comes out.
    3) Time outside of raiding
    Back when PAs were first announced I expected there to be greater PA from raiding the “end game” content. I was told that Trion didn't want people to get much PA from HK because they wanted people to play the game outside the dungeon. Sure I understand that concept, but what Trion should understand is that many people in a raiding guild don't have much time outside of raiding. Raiding itself requires a substantial amount of time for most individuals. Requiring people to be on outside everyday to do dailies/weeklies/farming + raid leads to burnout. We now have some raiders at 70k+ and some at 5k. Obviously skill being equal the person with 70k PA is getting in over the person getting 5k. This has caused some of our more time limited raiders to become depressed and quit due to “feeling so far behind” with no way to possibly catch up. The raider pool is quickly dwindling and there are multiple new games on the horizon (Terra, GW2, Firefall, etc, etc).
    4) New Raiding Requirement
    Prior to the PA system, raiding guilds simply posted up their class need and perhaps a gear requirement (focus/hit). Now more and more guilds are posting up PA requirements as well. The fact is that if you don't have much PA you will be at an extreme disadvantage compared to someone who has a lot. +60 to your 3 main stats, along with resists, and other bonuses is like wearing 2-3 extra pieces of gear over someone who doesn't have the PA. The "gear level" difference between someone with 100k PA and 0 PA is pretty monumental. Prior to PA it came down to gear and skill and you could “fast track” people to get gear if you wanted to. There is no fast tracking PA. Now I have to tell people who went on vacation or had RL stuff come up that they are so far behind in PA that we can't really bring them into ID. It's a sad reality that will no doubt grow even worse as the 3rd tier is released.
    5) Time investment
    I already went over the substantial time investment required to max your PA levels. However, the other aspect of this is that it really separates people based on the time they are able to invest into meaningless grinding. As mentioned above, it used to be just skill and gear, now it is skill, gear and grinding time. People that have unlimited time and enjoy grinding are able to rocket through PA giving their character an extreme advantage over someone else who is equivalently geared/skilled. There is nothing to limit this person's time investment other than the hours in a day. With gear you have weekly reset timers on all instances, thus we can't go in and repeatedly farm HK to get everyone relics in a week. Why is there this limitation? It's because long ago someone figured out that if this wasn't in the game people would spend as much time as they possibly could until they had the max (gear/level/etc). Maybe a daily/weekly max on PAs would help people from feeling like they have to spend every waking moment in the game? It's so bad in some games that they start issuing warnings that you've been logged in for an excessive amount of time. Stop turning us into mindless grinding zombies Trion!
    I think Trion screwed up with the PA system. In general it's a great idea, but it should have been introduced as more of a bonus rather than an endless grindfest. Perhaps Trion was worried that if people weren't logged in at every free moment they would lose interest and/or find other things (games) to do/play. However, I feel that it's kind of backfired and has now made it so some people have burned out grinding nonstop outside of raids. Sure we have dailies and weeklies that help but this just makes people who already struggle to maintain our raid hours feel like they are really missing out if they can't do all the 20 mans, all the 10 mans, our weekly raids and then farm even more on the side. New people coming into the game are behind on levels, gear, and now PA. Raiders are now limited by the time they can invest in the game outside of the raiding. So you are alienating people at both ends of the spectrum. I seriously think Trion should review the current system and adjust things accordingly before things get more out of hand. It used to be nice logging out of Rift occasionally to enjoy an off day with my family.. now you can start counting the time you aren't spending in game as lost PA.

    Damn.. I just lost 2 PA levels typing this post.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser laughingskull's Avatar
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    i agree. i dont have to much time to spend on the game outside of raid times, and because of this i was not hitting as hard as other warriors who had twice my PA. The amount of damage more was quite substantial. Im not saying this difference was entirely due to PA, but it is a huge part as we found out.
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  3. #3
    Plane Touched Thorazine's Avatar
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    I agree that it forces you to play the game outside of your scheduled raid times to remain competitive.

    That said, I think it's important for an mmorpg to accentuate the difference between a main and an alt.


    Ultimately I think the dev team found a nice spot. AoC's aa made me leave the game forever it was so crazy.
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    How is it a nice spot? You have essentially an unlimited amount of hours to invest. We have raiders at 70k+ PA now and a couple at 5k PA. We told our raiders we only wanted them to be at 25,000 before ID.. but since we have several people at 70k+ everyone feels compelled to login and grind every waking moment. We are getting burnout from people being on so much and we only raid for 1 hour a week (we've had Akylios on farm for over 2 months now)! It's pretty sick. There is no nice spot IMO when you can invest an unlimited number of hours and still have more grinding to do.

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    What content is balanced around the assumption you have PAs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    What content is balanced around the assumption you have PAs?
    Well considering all current raiding content was released prior to the introduction of the PA system I'd think your question is rather invalid. With ID being released soon it will be a major bonus to have as much PA as possible. Having your end/resist maxed for example will give you 15-20%+ more apparent HP for some fights. Given the nature of the encounters (from what I've heard from those testing) this will be pretty big. Whether or not Trion balanced ID around 100k PA is irrelevant as it doesn't detract from the fact that people feel compelled ("forced") to do meaningless grinding to be competitive.

  7. #7
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    Erm..your complaining that someone who plays in a persistant world more frequently than you do has an edge? Effort equals reward.

    Pa is easy to get get your 250k in 15 min compleating your daily dungeon.

    Its not manditory to get pa to be relevant in content...if your guild penalizes you for not having pa then it's a guild issue not a game issue. My guild doesn't ever bring up pa and we are a high end raiding guild. You act like a victim when there is 0 to complain about. 12 extra resist is. Nothing. 30 endurance is 300 hp and means almost nothing in a raiding scenario...don't blow it out of proportion

  8. #8
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrumpy View Post
    Damn.. I just lost 2 PA levels typing this post.
    If they're that fast to obtain, exactly what is the problem?


    Den of Madness | Greybriar | Den of Badness | Derpwood

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara Sargonnas_KoA's Avatar
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    I have played as a raider and casual and don't have strong feelings either way.

    From what I understand Planar Attunement was just a little something extra that would build up on your character over time and was never meant to be maxed out at light speed. I also agree with the earlier poster that its highly unlikely raid content is being built based on PA levels. Work on them or dont. Thats up to you. I haven't tried very hard myself and I'm still somewhere around 18,000 points just from playing the various parts of the game. If they let the points go across all characters I wouldn't care, but I don't think they should.

  10. #10
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    These threads always make me chuckle.

    The right balance of effort is defined as how much effort I want to put in, not more.

    The right balance for an encounter is just hard enough that my guild can can beat it, but not any harder.

    You don't want to farm PAs, you want to play an alt, congratulations, go ahead and do it. Just realize you're going to be behind those willing to put in more effort than you. Think about it next time you brand someone "bad", or a "casual".

    If you're truly "leet" you farm the PAs, if you're not, you get them over time by playing the game like everyone else, it seems fair to me.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Credo's Avatar
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    No content in this game requires PAs.
    Even free cost too much now

  12. #12
    Ascendant Anuhart's Avatar
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    Oh look another thread where people change their tune from "I worked for it" to "I want it for free".

    How times change.


    Analogy time.

    Dear Trion, I'm a min/maxer, if I was to increase my endurance I'd be gimping my block.
    Please make all stats into 1 stat so I don't gimp one by maxing another.

    Now more and more guilds are posting up PA requirements as well.
    Stop doing it then, or, play with people who don't.
    You either conform to PA necessity, your bed, lie in it, or you don't. Your choice.
    Last edited by Anuhart; 03-12-2012 at 11:58 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by View Post
    You obviously know nothing about Laethys, have you tried him?
    I don't log in anymore.

  13. #13
    Ascendant -Swag-'s Avatar
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    Power = Time invested. True of every progression-based MMO. The more time you spend working on your character the more powerful (directly or indirectly) it will be.

    Sorry, but your complaint about PA levels is no different than the complaints about Roles being too expensive ("But I don't have that much plat, so they shouldn't be that expensive") or the old T2 gear grind ("omg I only have time to do one dungeon a day... at this rate it'll take me almost a year to get all my armor!"). Can you play and be competitive without that 6th role? Sure. Can you begin raiding and be effective without a full set of plaque gear? Yep. Can you raid HK and ID without 1000 PA levels? Definitely.

    The PA system is exactly what it needed to be. A couple nice little bonuses here and there, but overall a very low reward vs time invested ratio--just like it should be. Surprisingly few people hardcore grind PAs for the sake of PAs. To most, it is the perfect alternate advancement system with neat little rewards, but little pressure to get them all.

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser laughingskull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    No content in this game requires PAs.
    if you want to be in a competitive raid guild that has at least a semi-hardcore style, they are basically required.
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  15. #15
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughingskull View Post
    if you want to be in a competitive raid guild that has at least a semi-hardcore style, they are basically required.
    He said the game doesn't require PAs.

    Guilds requiring PA's for the sake of making content easier is their own choice, and something you can progress to yourself.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 03-12-2012 at 12:00 PM.

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