A raider's case against PAs

**Skrumpy** · 03-22-2012 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zadozex

Skrumpy, I think we'll just need to agree to disagree on this one. I think your view on the situation is a bit short sighted frankly. Yes, PA is a system without end, but precisely because of that, people don't feel the need to try to complete it. If it was easily completable, I think the casual raider would actually feel more compelled to grind it. Because it takes so much effort and so long to do, very few guilds use it as a requirement. It's just a bonus, a perk to being an active player.

Having active players is exactly what the system is designed for. Without it, all those people that finish their weekly raids would have no reason to log in. That is such a boon for this game. Nothing kills a game faster than perceived low population or inactivity. Rift always feels vibrant. T2's, Zone Events, IA's. All of these things are well populated.

Also, as many others have said, PA is just not needed for the content. It's just a bonus to make it easier. In the long term, yes, PA stats will make a huge difference, I won't argue that. But the case against PA isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. Most people have at least some PA and usually they go for their most useful ones first, people with higher PA must get a lot of fluff hexes before they can start getting useful hexes again. So the effective difference between low PA and high PA isn't really that large.

At the end of the day, who is PA hurting? Enticing people to log on is a good thing for the entire player base. Most people do current content with their guilds on raid nights, but most of my other raiding (DH/GP/ROS/GSB) is all PUG's. There would be no PUG's if people weren't logging in because there's nothing to do. And if people don't want to log in and gain PA, that's fine too. The content is balanced around not having any PA. The only people that seem to be complaining are people that are parsing lower than equally geared people. If someone wants to put more time into the game than me, then fine, let them do more DPS and have better stats. What's not fair about that?

My view is shortsighted by design since it is looking at things from the viewpoint of a raider. Hence the title of this thread "A raider's case against PAs".

Yes, PA is a system without end, but precisely because of that, people don't feel the need to try to complete it.

What?! Where is the logic here? Just because something has no end that means no one feels like they need to complete it? WTF.. Do you NOT understand that PAs give you ~20% to your stats and ~30-40% more HP (some of this is apparent HP from resists). These stats are insane bonuses to raiding, anyone that doesn't want them is either not a raider, or someone that doesn't understand the huge benefits you can from having max PA. Also, if anything no end in sight only causes people to become demoralized, not cause them to just not care.

TWENTY PERCENT TO YOUR MAIN STATS IS HUGE. THIS IS LIKE YOU DE-EQUIPING 2-3 PIECES OF ARMOR.

Would you raid without 2-3 pieces of armor? Any guild I know would promptly throw you out on your ***. I think you are GROSSLY underestimating the value PAs bring to the table and also GROSSLY underestimating how these PA stats are valued by the RAIDING community. There would be no problem whatsoever if PAs gave no stats. I could care less if there was a million levels and I only had 1 and everyone around me had 999,999. The fact of the matter is these are HUGE bonuses to raiding and they compel (force) raiders to log in and engage in meaningless grinding outside of an aspect of the game they find fun. It is like if Trion started to make all of the BiS raiding gear come from PvP or collecting artifacts or some other completely non-raiding related aspect of the game.

Myself and many others DON'T WANT TO FARM PA to be competitive in a raiding environment. Don't tell me people don't feel like they need to farm PA because that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

**Skrumpy** · 03-22-2012 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by DevinKa

I posted this in the PTS, but I post here too.

Trion should open tier 3, but disable it in the raiding zones or just ID. I don't care if it would be for good or for a while. And everyone is happy right?

Please don't make this win-loose situation. Can you guys make this win-win or draw situation?

This would be fine as long as Trion promised not to release T3 before the majority of guilds cleared ID. Either way the problem is not necessarily T3 being released. The system as a whole is flawed and I can guarantee there will be more changes on the horizon. The PA system is a huge impediment to getting new people into the game who may want to raid.

**Hyacinth** · 03-22-2012 08:38 PM

Personally, I like the PA system - but then, I'm neither a min/maxer nor a raider. I love the fact that there are still little perks I can continue to gain after I've hit level 50: trees to fill out, choices to make, a use for all of that experience that otherwise would have gone to waste, etc. However, I can understand where the OP is coming from. The desire to get everything, be it a collectible, an extra stat point, or what have you can be almost overpowering for some people, and in fact, this is the way I often approach single-player games, with the mentality of seeing every ending, finding every side quest, and so on. That being said, it seems that some raid-minded people are taking this mentality one step further and applying the existence of peer pressure, that is, that not having your PA maxed out (or at least a good way in) is just as bad as not having raid-appropriate gear or as running with a gimped spec. I don't believe that there is any reason for this particular type of pressure to exist with PA levels; they are there for fun, something "extra", and should not become viewed as a requirement. To me, this seems like the fundamental difference fueling the argument: some (like me) view PA levels as tasty candy sprinkles on top of my level 50 cake, and others view PA levels as icing - they might not like it, but once everyone finds out it exists, they won't acknowledge that your level 50 cake is complete unless you have it.

I would love if everyone could just go "Ah, this is extra!" and leave it at that, but I understand that the min/maxer mentality seldom allows for such a response. It is the same reason that hunters in WoW were once commanded to only run with wolves, and were kicked from groups if they ran with any other pet (even if the DPS difference was small). Disabling certain PA tiers for raids (as mentioned in several above posts) would definitely help to alleviate the peer pressure, but would raiders feel more relieved that they wouldn't have to grind PA levels in order to be accepted by other raiders, or upset that a helpful mechanic existed elsewhere in the game but they weren't allowed to take advantage of it? Also, if the PA system were changed too much, then maybe new players who wanted to raid would be more interested in the game; however, players such as myself would become much more bored with our post-50 experience, and new players who planned on joining for the nearly-endless "constant improvement" content they provide may also be deterred. (Just as min/maxers feel at peace when they have every possible point in their stats, there are also players who only feel at peace when there is still something yet to be gained, whose rush comes from seeing little numbers go up at level dings.)

I guess the only really constructive thing I have to say in this longer-than-I-intended post is, I tentatively support the idea of blocking T3 or other PA content from being useful in raids in order to alleviate the pressure that PA seems to be having on raiders. There may very well be a better solution out there, but it should not obliterate the gains of PA to the extent that "constant improvement" players suffer a loss of things to do, and any changes made must address the underlying pressure that "min-maxers" face with regard to needing their PA levels filled in order to feel accepted.

This may have been mentioned before (I could not bring myself to read all pages at this time, deepest apologies!!), but are there improvements that PA could give that will not cause min/maxers to feel badly about not having them? For example, the ones that increase mounted movement speed or that reduce falling damage taken? These might still have uses from time to time in warfronts or certain raid situations, but because they are not core stats, I imagine their impact on performance and the pressure to have them is greatly lessened, while still giving players who enjoy constantly improving themselves something to work forward to. Curious about others' thoughts: would you be mad if, say, T3 was comprised entirely of this, or even if the current PA levels were re-worked to include more of these cosmetic/movement/etc. perks and less combat-buffing perks, or would a system like this appeal to you?

**Skrumpy** · 03-22-2012 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hyacinth

Personally, I like the PA system - but then, I'm neither a min/maxer nor a raider. I love the fact that there are still little perks I can continue to gain after I've hit level 50: trees to fill out, choices to make, a use for all of that experience that otherwise would have gone to waste, etc. However, I can understand where the OP is coming from. The desire to get everything, be it a collectible, an extra stat point, or what have you can be almost overpowering for some people, and in fact, this is the way I often approach single-player games, with the mentality of seeing every ending, finding every side quest, and so on. That being said, it seems that some raid-minded people are taking this mentality one step further and applying the existence of peer pressure, that is, that not having your PA maxed out (or at least a good way in) is just as bad as not having raid-appropriate gear or as running with a gimped spec. I don't believe that there is any reason for this particular type of pressure to exist with PA levels; they are there for fun, something "extra", and should not become viewed as a requirement. To me, this seems like the fundamental difference fueling the argument: some (like me) view PA levels as tasty candy sprinkles on top of my level 50 cake, and others view PA levels as icing - they might not like it, but once everyone finds out it exists, they won't acknowledge that your level 50 cake is complete unless you have it.

I would love if everyone could just go "Ah, this is extra!" and leave it at that, but I understand that the min/maxer mentality seldom allows for such a response. It is the same reason that hunters in WoW were once commanded to only run with wolves, and were kicked from groups if they ran with any other pet (even if the DPS difference was small). Disabling certain PA tiers for raids (as mentioned in several above posts) would definitely help to alleviate the peer pressure, but would raiders feel more relieved that they wouldn't have to grind PA levels in order to be accepted by other raiders, or upset that a helpful mechanic existed elsewhere in the game but they weren't allowed to take advantage of it? Also, if the PA system were changed too much, then maybe new players who wanted to raid would be more interested in the game; however, players such as myself would become much more bored with our post-50 experience, and new players who planned on joining for the nearly-endless "constant improvement" content they provide may also be deterred. (Just as min/maxers feel at peace when they have every possible point in their stats, there are also players who only feel at peace when there is still something yet to be gained, whose rush comes from seeing little numbers go up at level dings.)

I guess the only really constructive thing I have to say in this longer-than-I-intended post is, I tentatively support the idea of blocking T3 or other PA content from being useful in raids in order to alleviate the pressure that PA seems to be having on raiders. There may very well be a better solution out there, but it should not obliterate the gains of PA to the extent that "constant improvement" players suffer a loss of things to do, and any changes made must address the underlying pressure that "min-maxers" face with regard to needing their PA levels filled in order to feel accepted.

This may have been mentioned before (I could not bring myself to read all pages at this time, deepest apologies!!), but are there improvements that PA could give that will not cause min/maxers to feel badly about not having them? For example, the ones that increase mounted movement speed or that reduce falling damage taken? These might still have uses from time to time in warfronts or certain raid situations, but because they are not core stats, I imagine their impact on performance and the pressure to have them is greatly lessened, while still giving players who enjoy constantly improving themselves something to work forward to. Curious about others' thoughts: would you be mad if, say, T3 was comprised entirely of this, or even if the current PA levels were re-worked to include more of these cosmetic/movement/etc. perks and less combat-buffing perks, or would a system like this appeal to you?

If there were no stats or raid enhancing PAs there would not be an issue. That is pretty much the concern in a nutshell. Then people could say "Ah this is extra!" without thinking "Ah I have to login and farm tonight in order to feel competitive in a raiding environment."

**Nicething** · 03-22-2012 09:00 PM

really ?

u dont let player with t4 gear join your raids couz of PA's ?
70k+ is nice to have, but 5k are fine too.

if ur not able to run with 5k PA's or u notice a real difference in damage ur doing sth wrong !

with full endamge EQ u can run HK with 15 players without any problems and u complaining about some PA's...

PA is the reward if u just play one char and dont lvl up 5 twinks with all kind of jobs @300

**DevinKa** · 03-22-2012 10:10 PM