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Thread: Progression, 10 man raids and lockouts.

  1. #1
    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Default Progression, 10 man raids and lockouts.

    We are not a hard core raiding guild, we are a causal guild and we don't place many raid requirements on members beyond be on time, have Mumble and meet the minimum gear. But we do have a core of motivated raiders focused on our progression. This approach has worked well for us on the 20 man content where everyone shares the same lockout. But on the 10 man content we hit a brick wall due to players in our guild ending up with different lockouts.

    This current lockout system is a bit frustrating for the progression on the 10 man content. We have more then 10 people who want to raid the content but we don't have enough progression minded people for two different groups with different lockouts to progress normally in the 10 mans. If we run two groups then both groups can clear what we already have on farm but neither group can progress in the content due to stretching our stronger players to thin. Then what ends up happening is that our members who are motivated the most towards progression get different lockouts on the 10 man instants and can't comeback to progress in a group with each other.

    I would very much like to see Trion come up with a lockout system for the 10 man content that didn't place half the a guild's raiding team on different lockouts. If you have similar concerns about this issue please make a post in this thread to help draw attention to this problem.

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  2. #2
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    The solution to that would be to put your best 10 in one group so they can progress and have the other 10 just do farm bosses.

    Then once your best 10 are familiar enough with the fight they can split up and carry your less dedicated members.

    Seems pretty simple to me.
    Nope.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    We have done that with the 10 mans, put our best in there and got the clear, but that does not really resolve the problem. The problem remains and since we are a causal guild we do let people sgin up for raids at thier own discretion.

    I would prefer having the whole raid force progress in the 10 mans as they do in the 20 mans. Where everyone feels they are part of the process. We are a non-spoiler guild with end game focus, exploration of the content is what we are about and I would like to include everyone in that. I don't like to leave people out of that process when that could be the reason they joined the guild. I would rather have a lockout system that let us progress in the 10 man content as a whole; not with an A team and B team mentality.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    8 full HK geared people with bunch of relic pieces can carry 1 or 2 undergeared/casuals through RotP.
    You can carry a lot more through 1-10 HK so gear them up, tell them builds/rotations and you should be fine. Problem is when ppl dont even care about spending 20-30 mins on reading tactics and only present "give me free lootz" attitude,but thats different story...

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer tordana's Avatar
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    The issue of skill/carrying people/etc is completely unrelated. The fact is that the lockouts do need to be adjusted.

    In LoTRO (the game I raided prior to RIFT), lockouts worked on a per-boss basis. If you killed the first boss of a raid, you were now locked to that boss. If you went in one night and killed 3 bosses, you were locked to those 3. When you came back, you could create a raid full of people that had killed those 3 bosses or any amount less than that (2, 1, or 0) and jump right in starting after the third boss. All locks were based on the leader of the raid -- however many bosses they had killed, anybody that had killed an equal or lesser number could enter the instance with them and copy their locks.

    The only disadvantage to this system was that people sold locks -- once it was to the point where only the last boss of an instance dropped any meaningful loot, one guild on a server would clear to the last boss and then create a raid that all the other guild leaders would join, pay a little money to the originating guild, and zone in. Then they'd break up the raid and all the other guilds would be able to walk right up to the last boss without clearing the stuff before it. But really, is that such a bad thing to allow people to skip the content they've done a million times before to get to the good stuff?
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  6. #6
    Telaran
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    The only disadvantage to this system was that people sold locks -- once it was to the point where only the last boss of an instance dropped any meaningful loot, one guild on a server would clear to the last boss and then create a raid that all the other guild leaders would join, pay a little money to the originating guild, and zone in. Then they'd break up the raid and all the other guilds would be able to walk right up to the last boss without clearing the stuff before it. But really, is that such a bad thing to allow people to skip the content they've done a million times before to get to the good stuff?
    And the same would happen here and I believe thats one of the main why TRION doesnt allow any "smart" locking system. On the other side it sucks when your group dont have enough time to finish the run and you have to replace with unlocked ppl next day or wait until reset.

  7. #7
    Champion
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    @OP- I fail to see how locking an encounter in the way you described would solve the issue with your guild. You would still have your better raiders clearing content that the other group wouldn't be able to finish (I assume you mean RotP)

    In my guild our officers have been splitting us up into 2 groups and pairing our more casual players with people who can compensate for mistakes if needed. We have 2 full clear RotP groups helping people gear every week. The only thing we really can't do is some of the acheivements in the zone.

    If people are struggling with progress and mechanics perhaps the deeper issue needs to be addressed concerning their level of ability if they can't be brought through the raids by a few of your more "motivated" people.
    RNG is everything

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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    I don't see what the problem is - if you have a full 20-man group, you should be able to split this into two 10-man groups easily enough. If it's an issue of people not having the relevant offspecs to do this, you need to work on gearing these people up and making sure that everyone has viable off-specs for any roles they might need to fulfil. That's nothing that raid lockouts is going to solve.

    And fast-tracking your "best" ten people through 10-mans helps nobody - you need to split people out and try and keep everyone on an even keel progression-wise. Otherwise you're going to run into issues where people can't raid because they don't have good enough gear, and don't have good enough gear because they can't raid.

    As an example, in our guild we have about 30 regular raiders. We do HK and rotate people in/out depending on who needs what from which bosses the most. Then we split into two teams of 14-15 and do the T1 20-mans. Then we split into 3 groups of 9-10 and do the 10-mans. This way, nobody gets left behind, even if not everyone gets to kill every progression boss. But unless you happen to have an exact multiple of 20 people who all have perfectly competent and well-geared offspecs, you're always going to run into issues with being short of people and/or roles for some content.

  9. #9
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    We're running -5- ROTP groups this week. Its a matter of splitting your members' by capability and experience.

    Of course its easier if the vast majority of your guild consists of capable raiders, enough to possibly carry one or two through rotp.

    Its a different matter entirely if it leans the other way; where you have too few people capable of doing the lifting and splitting them creates groups that are not capable of finishing in a reasonable amount of time.

    At that point you'd either need to work with your folks in terms of proper specs and raid mechanics... or give it up and just run one group to clear... and take one or two different people per week with you to see the content.

    Changing the lockout system won't help you with that. You can still only kill each boss once per week, and only 10 people will see that kill per group.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltariss View Post
    And the same would happen here and I believe thats one of the main why TRION doesnt allow any "smart" locking system. On the other side it sucks when your group dont have enough time to finish the run and you have to replace with unlocked ppl next day or wait until reset.
    Would be nice to do what WoW does (yes a dirty 3 letter word:P).

    You kill a Boss you are locked. You can do the boss again but get no loot off it.

    Not a bad system.

    If you start a PuG GSB and it goes all wrong after the first Boss you are screwed and can't even join another run to finish it.

    Loot once a lock out. But kill as many times as you like. What would it matter?

  11. #11
    Shield of Telara WriteThemWrong's Avatar
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    You may just have to tell some of your players to play better. If some of them aren't following mechanics and slowing down your "stronger players" then its on them to play better, not lockouts or how raids work.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post
    Would be nice to do what WoW does (yes a dirty 3 letter word:P).

    You kill a Boss you are locked. You can do the boss again but get no loot off it.

    Not a bad system.

    If you start a PuG GSB and it goes all wrong after the first Boss you are screwed and can't even join another run to finish it.

    Loot once a lock out. But kill as many times as you like. What would it matter?
    Because then serious guilds would start feeling like they have to gear out a heap of alts in order to allow them to funnel gear to their mains in order to gear up faster.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 03-10-2012 at 05:47 PM.
    Nope.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    Lock outs are fine.

    If you want 20 people to feel like they are part of progression in a 10 man, I suggest you keep making pulls in HK until it's full cleared and not bother going into RotP.

    If running 1 group to get a full clear would prevents group 2 from killing farm content, then you have a decision to make.

    Hell, if anything I think after a boss it should lock all the characters, so you can't even swap someone in. Raids are stories after all, and stories don't just swap heroes in all willy nilly.
    Doesn't matter what is put here, someone is going to @#%^& about it, regardless of what it is.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    We are 4/4 of rotp, this thread is not about rotp specifically. We had similar issues with GP and the thread is about lockouts and how they effect the 10 mans raids.

    I don't know how many of you are in a no-spoiler guild but progression is a bit different, things take a bit more time and beyond gear it also take the right mentality. In the past, we have split into two groups spreading our players out. But this creates problems if people want to reform later that week to work out strats. That is our main concern with the current lock out system.
    Last edited by Jeremiahcp; 03-11-2012 at 08:30 AM.

  15. #15
    Sword of Telara
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    What I'd recomend:

    Find a like-minded guild that has the same problem and form a sort of alliance for the 10mans. This way 2 20man raids combine to make 3 10man raids and only a select few will have to sit out if any at all. you'd be amazed how many guilds have this very problem when it comes to the 10mans.
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