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Thread: Is King's Breach bugged?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Is King's Breach bugged?

    About a week ago I completed King's Breach on expert difficulty and since I did not die assumed I would receive the SPIKELESS achievement. However, I did not receive it. I contacted a GM regarding the issue and the GMs have been very helfpful in addressing my issue, but apparently something of this nature can only be fixed by TRION itself.

    According to the achievement for SPIKELESS the following must occur in order to receive credit: "Defeat Konstantin without being impaled by any spikes or dying on expert difficulty." My understanding of the wording is that in order for the condition to be met justifying the achievement you either cannot die while fighting Konstantin or cannot have been impaled by any spikes. So it's one or the other, not a combination of both. Yet I did not receive credit for SPIKELESS even though I did not die.

    Am I misreading the language of SPIKELESS's required conditions or is it bugged? Has anyone else experienced this problem while doing King's Breach? If so I hope TRION will resolve it soon, if it's an error. However, if it is not an error then I think the wording of the required conditions for achieving SPIKELESS ought to be changed from "either or" to "without being impaled by any spikes and dying," because the latter is makes more grammatically sense and is correct.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Right now to get the achievment you need to avoid all spikes and stay alive for the whole fight.

    Reason being, you can die in the fight and not hit any spikes, but you can also hit spikes and not die.

    For further clarification just look at the achievment itself: "Spikeless".

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    the achievement is worded correctly, your mind has just added a comma.

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer tordana's Avatar
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    The achievement is logically correct as it is. You apparently have never taken a logic course -- negation turns things around.

    NOT (a or b) is only true if both a and b are false, because if only one is true it resolves to NOT (true or false) = NOT (true) = false. (and the same if both are true)

    Meanwhile, NOT (a and b), which you suggested, is false if they are both true and true otherwise. This is what you were hoping the achievement would be, not what it is.
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  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tordana View Post
    The achievement is logically correct as it is. You apparently have never taken a logic course -- negation turns things around.

    NOT (a or b) is only true if both a and b are false, because if only one is true it resolves to NOT (true or false) = NOT (true) = false. (and the same if both are true)

    Meanwhile, NOT (a and b), which you suggested, is false if they are both true and true otherwise. This is what you were hoping the achievement would be, not what it is.
    :-O I actually agree with you on something for once! :-)

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Default Interesting...

    I think it's rather funny how RogueRange and tordana presume to be correct regarding something that is quite simple. Because most people in America--dare I say in the English speaking world--commonly use the word "or" in combination with one another word, the logic of its usage entails one or the other, regarding that which it references. For example: The statement "Eat your peas or go to bed," is the exact same thing as saying "Either eat your peas or go to bed." There are only two options.

    It is not the case as you two suggest that simply saying "Eat your peas or go to bed" is a negation of any sort, which it is not. If common sense prevails most people who read a sentence like the above will interpret it to mean an either / or proposition, not a combined possible outcome.

    Yet let's reduce it further since you two obviously think that there is only one way of interpreting the wording of this particular achievement.

    Dictionary.com defines the word 'or' as the following: 'conjunction' "(used to connect words, phrases, or clauses representing alternatives): books or magazines; to be or not to be," "(used to connect alternative terms for the same thing): the Hawaiian, or Sandwich, Islands," "(used in correlation): either or; or or; whether or," "(used to correct or rephrase what was previously said): His autobiography, or rather memoirs, will soon be ready for publication," "otherwise; or else: Be here on time, or we'll leave without you," "Logic . the connective used in disjunction." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/or (accessed March 4, 2012).

    Hmm...there's that word LOGIC, which you two obviously think I and anyone else who thinks differently has no understanding of. Well let's look at how the word "or" is used as a connective in a disjunction, looking at the definition of the word 'disjunction.'

    Dictionary.com defines the word 'disjunction' as the following: 'noun' Logic "Also called disjunctive, inclusive disjunction. a compound proposition that is true if and only if at least one of a number of alternatives is true," "Also called exclusive disjunction. a compound proposition that is true if and only if one and only one of a number of alternatives is true," "the relation among the components of such a proposition, usually expressed by AND or V."

    World English Dictionary
    logic "the operator that forms a compound sentence from two given sentences and corresponds to the English or," "a sentence so formed. Usually written p ∨ q where p, q are the component sentences, it is true (inclusive sense) whenever either or both of the latter are true; the exclusive disjunction, for which there is no symbol, is true when either but not both disjuncts is," "the relation between such sentences."
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disjunction (accessed March 4, 2012).

    Webster's Illustrated Contemporary Dictionary, Encyclopedic Edition, defines the word 'or' as the following:
    "conj. 1 Introducing an alternative: stop [I]or[I] go. 2 Offering a choice of a series: Will you take mil or coffee or chocolate? 3 Introducing an equivalent: the culinary art or art of cookery. 4 Indicating uncertainty: He lives in Chicago or thereabouts. 5 Introducing the second alternative of a choice limited to two: with either or whether: It must be either black or white. 6 Either; whether: or in the heart or in the head."

    Wikipedia has the following to say about the usage of the word 'or':
    "Conjunction (grammar):

    Coordinating conjunctions
    Coordinating conjunctions, also called coordinators, are conjunctions that join two or more items of equal syntactic importance, such as words, main clauses, or sentences.

    Or presents an alternative item or idea ("Every day, they gamble or they smoke.")."

    I think it is vividly clear that whenever the word 'or' is used in the English language it's used to designate a choice, alternative, or options. The only exception to this rule is when it's referencing something that's equivalent, as was pointed out in two of the definitions I cited. I submit to you two that there are easier ways to understand the English language than learning it through playing RIFT, ESL can be taken quite easily online now and a number of schools offer it. Not to mention the fact there are numerous books out there that will help better your comprehension of the English language and how it is used by the commonalty.

    Incidentally you two can procure English Grammar For Dummieshttp://www.amazon.com/English-Gramma...0896774&sr=1-1, for a modest fee of only $12.16 paperback ed. or $9.89 kindle ed. Good luck with your ESL sojourn, I wish you two all the best

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara gfiz's Avatar
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    if we're going to site logic, let's go back to the achievement name "spikeless", shall we?

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer tordana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfiz View Post
    if we're going to site logic, let's go back to the achievement name "spikeless", shall we?
    This.

    Also, the key word is "without." If the achievement read "defeat konstantin being hit by spikes at least three times or having less than 5 people in the party" your assessment would be correct -- you only have to do one of the two things. But "without" is the logical NOT in the sentence.

    NOT (a or b) is is equivalent to (NOT a) AND (NOT b) so if the text were to be changed it should read "defeat konstantin without being hit by spikes and without dying."

    Edit: final example, consider the statement "don't go to the bar or Jim's house." By your logic you would be obeying instructions if you went to the bar, but not to Jim's house.
    Last edited by tordana; 03-04-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    They should have used nor. They probably added the dying part to prevent people from getting the achieve if they were dead & therefore weren't hit by spikes.

    Wave Goodbye is a similar achieve without the additional qualifier, and people who are either dead, or outside the room can still get the achievement.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
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    "Without being hit by spikes AND dying" would suggest something rather silly, wouldn't it? Tordana's logical interpretation is correct. Although as stated above, from an english point of view, perhaps nor is a better word.

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Telnedra's Avatar
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    how about "Defeat Konstantin without dying. You must also avoid any damage from the spikes." That should clear it up
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  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzin View Post
    "Without being hit by spikes AND dying" would suggest something rather silly, wouldn't it? Tordana's logical interpretation is correct. Although as stated above, from an english point of view, perhaps nor is a better word.
    The most clear statement would be "Without being hit by spikes and without dying"

    I still don't have any difficulty understanding "Don't get hit by spikes or die," and I feel like under the context of an achievement it should be obvious that you have to go through the fight without running afoul of the mechanics while staying alive...
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  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara ChainsawPlankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzin View Post
    "Without being hit by spikes AND dying" would suggest something rather silly, wouldn't it? Tordana's logical interpretation is correct. Although as stated above, from an english point of view, perhaps nor is a better word.
    tbh it would be pretty awesome if you could only get the achieve when dead :

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