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Thread: The tank problem... an ugly but possibly viable solution?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Tolmos's Avatar
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    Default The tank problem... an ugly but possibly viable solution?

    Normally when I make a suggestion I post an accompanying wall of text that would make your eyes bleed. This time I'll keep it short and sweet because there isn't much to say. Pretty much every player will understand what I am saying and either agree or disagree regardless of what I post, as its a fairly simple topic, so I'll get straight to the point:

    Make all tanking AOE skills, for all classes, have no mob cap.
    (EDIT: There is actually a second suggestion at the end of the thread.)

    Seriously, that's the full extent of my grand suggestion to fix the lack of tanks in the game.

    My reasoning? Many of the people that I've talked to who want to tank but don't are nervous that their class doesn't have enough trash mob control skills. Some instances and raids really like to drop large numbers on you, and it can be a bit overwhelming for new tanks.

    Most of the opposition to this thread will likely be of the mindset of this is dumbing down tanking. Honestly... you aren't wrong, to an extent. But I'll tell you why I think this is an ok idea: learning to tank is more difficult than learning to DPS because you have to make entire groups suffer through your learning experience. Not a lot of people have it in them to waste others time wiping groups as they try to learn their class, and there aren't any tanking dummies for them to practice on in Sanctum. Tanking is a thankless job (such as healing. *sigh*). You most often get one of two responses: total silence if you did everything right, and unbelievable whining and complaining if you did something wrong.

    Um... yea... second suggestion(just thought of it thanks to the last paragraph lol): tanking practice npcs in Sanctum/Meridian. >_> Make it a small arena type area with turrets and an NPC you talk to. The NPC lets you spawn up to say 20-30 trash npcs that give no experience or loot when they die. The turrets will not attack until 2 seconds after the tank initiates combat with those NPCs, at which point they would generate as much threat as a bunch of mages.

    >_>
    Last edited by Tolmos; 03-03-2012 at 02:54 PM.
    Rift: 50 Rogue Tank, Two 50 Cleric tanks, and a 50 Mage

  2. #2
    Champion Airien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolmos View Post
    My reasoning? Many of the people that I've talked to who want to tank but don't are nervous that their class doesn't have enough trash mob control skills. Some instances and raids really like to drop large numbers on you, and it can be a bit overwhelming for new tanks.

    Most of the opposition to this thread will likely be of the mindset of this is dumbing down tanking. Honestly... you aren't wrong, to an extent. But I'll tell you why I think this is an ok idea: learning to tank is more difficult than learning to DPS because you have to make entire groups suffer through your learning experience.
    Tanking takes skill, it shouldn't be padded with skills to make it easier.

    One thing I liked about the earlier dungeons in this game is that they were set up pretty perfectly IMO to allow tanks room for error while learning.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Hotter's Avatar
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    Well I wouldn't add raids to the example given as who in their right mind would willingly join a raid with a noob tank/healer? That said, aoe threat is hard for tanks? I think clerics were fixed with dol overheals. If anything, at lower levels it is just new people learning their class/role. The tradeoff for the tank/heal responsibility is the shorter q times, and... mostly for the tank, the group won't kick unless things go really south. That provides considerable leeway and new tanks should use it to their advantage, within reason.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Tufelhunden's Avatar
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    On my group it'snot tanks that are the problem it's healers. After the DPS increase clerics got no one wants to heal. My tank sits forever in the queue. My healer pops quick.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Alandar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tufelhunden View Post
    On my group it'snot tanks that are the problem it's healers. After the DPS increase clerics got no one wants to heal. My tank sits forever in the queue. My healer pops quick.
    Ran AP couple days ago, last boss I popped out 1900 hps. The only way that is possible is if people are completely ignoring mechanics and then have the nerve to whine and complain when they die.

    On topic though, I am more inclined towards your second idea. Give some of these new players something like dummies they can practice on. Many times is not even the threat generation that is a problem, its the fact that people new to tanking just aren't really good at making pulls. Perhaps when you talk to the npcs it pops up some different configurations where you have to pull them or something. Make it a mini-game, I love mini-games.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara
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    The very reason why people can't hold aggro on multiple mobs is that they are not aware of what the mobs are doing.

    For instance, there is a group of 5 mobs, 3 melee, 1 physical range and 1 magical range.
    Some tanks have no clue how to deal with them, partially because of lack of silencing abilities in the game.
    Also there is the mindset people start to have "just don't worry about it" once they outgear the content, discouraging the tank to excute the tanking art s/he has in her/his mind.

    And of course, the reason why a wipe happened was because the tank was bad or the healer wasn't doing her/his job...

    There are too many factors involved in this issue.
    When it comes to tanking multiple mobs, I would say silencing/pulling-in abilities would make it better than just increasing AoE threat.
    Short-duration (10-15 sec) short-CD (45-60 sec) full/partial shielding ability would make things better too, so that healer can wait a few seconds before starting to heal and therefore not generating threat too early.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    There is a problem with tanking?

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banuvan View Post
    There is a problem with tanking?
    Tanks and heals always get the blame never dps. How about the dps wait to start their aoe/dmg until the tank gets the mobs rounded up and generate some Argo? So many time I see dps start the aoe as soon as I start the pull. I usually don't have a problem with Argo, but dps shouldn't get a pass all the time.
    Last edited by Urgentfury; 03-03-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant mo0trix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolmos View Post
    remove all (little) skill required to tank


    No.

    Just no.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    There is a saying that is pretty old.

    If the tank dies, it's the healers fault.
    If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault.
    If the dps dies, it's their own damn fault.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Robes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banuvan View Post
    There is a saying that is pretty old.

    If the tank dies, it's the healers fault.
    If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault.
    If the dps dies, it's the tank or healers fault.
    Fixed .
    Teddro - Warrior - Seastone

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    Synna Stonecove/Invalid Target for all those darkfall people

  12. #12
    Shadowlander Andelor's Avatar
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    I'm a veteran tank of several MMO. But of course that means little here because this is rift and not (insert old timer memory).

    I just came back to Rift and I'm finally at cap and geared to tank. I've been running experts and I have to say, while the mechanics to all the bosses I've seen so far are varied and fun, the trash is the most threatening thing. Not in terms of danger, but in terms of fear/doubt.

    When I was getting started, I hadn't tanked yet, never tanked an expert, and I was afraid of getting people killed. There are two ways to fix this: Run with your guild, and jump in and do it.

    It's all a confidence game. Sure, you have the numbers to get into the LFG, but it's a tank's self confidence that matters. I'm not saying go be a smug jerk. Just start tanking and you'll see it's not so bad. It's actually quite fun.
    "By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth." - George Carlin

  13. #13
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Tanking is so bloody easy as far as actually controlling the class in this game it's ridiculous. Making it any easier is just going to result in less tanks as those of us who already do it die of boredom. The fact is that tanking requires something other than muscle-memory rotations: you need personal and group awareness with the decisiveness to react quickly and appropriately to dynamic situations. Most people just don't want the associated responsibility.

    As far as ease of play... seriously, have you played a Cleric tank?

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara merrier's Avatar
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    I think the lack of tanks has less to do with the mechanics of the game than the mentality of the players.

    People expect the tank to know everything, be incredibly geared, and basically just lead them through by the nose. I see very little patience for helping out new tanks.

    If you're a tank and having issues, the common 'helpful' reply seems to be to do it on a dps character, watch videos, etc. Nothing substitutes for real experience as a tank. However, people don't want to be the ones who go through that experience with a new tank.

    So, the next answer is 'do it with your guild'. Yeah, that can help, but not everyone has a guild. Sometimes even in a guild you don't get the experience you need to succeed. You'll be with a group of people who want you to do well and do everything they can to make it happen. It's a whole different world when you throw yourself into a PUG.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    I'd like to see a 7th soul that can only be used for tanking or healing, and it's completely free but can only be used for... tanking or healing builds. No more excuses for "I'm already using all of my roles", and it may give people an incentive to actually try them.
    Currently playing Beermaid lvl 65 War

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