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Thread: Minimum standards for Dungeons... may need a revamp... I propose a test via Chronicle

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    Rift Disciple Skoshi's Avatar
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    Default Minimum standards for Dungeons... may need a revamp... I propose a test via Chronicle

    Last night... I had a dude in my group... was selected as a full DPS not support or anything like that.

    MAGE... not a cleric or a warrior where they get used to healing or tanking and can't make the transition to DPS.

    So we were curious... he had ONE soul build... only one.... which CAN be OK... but is rare.

    It was Elementalist/Stormcaller... not Chloro or Archon or Dominator.

    His DPS on single targets was between 67 and 200... and on multiple target pulls his Area of effect was landing him at 150-400... and 400 was RARE.

    In a Tier 2 dungeon it is expected as a DPS that you do about 700+ DPS single target and 100+ on multiple target pulls... this is not a super high expectation for DPS... but even then I tend to give some people the benefit of the doubt... "Well they are about 500-600 single target... the other dudes are doing OK... we will be fine... no need to cause a ruckus"

    But 67 to 200... OMG...

    So first thing we did was have the support guy go full DPS.... that helped a TON on compensating... and then a few of us with mages tried to teach him a bit about his class.

    We did 2 bosses in darkening deeps like this... after that 2nd boss I had to call an end to it... explaining the tank wasn't supposed to do 2x-6x the DPS of the DPS team members on every single pull... and we had to kick the dude. To be honest... after I stopped and mentioned the DPS... I was not the one who started the kick vote... nor was it my fiancee... it was someone whom I had never met before that dungeon who was also running a parser.

    Now... I don't expect everyone to run a parser... or to know what their DPS is... but I expect you to know your role... AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT.

    OK.. now I am going to fess up... I have a 4 year old son... will be 5 in June... He has a ranger/marksman.. in 2 weeks playing only on the days I have custody (and on weekdays I get him at 6 and he goes to bed at 8 and he has to eat dinner in there also)... he has made it to lvl 16.

    So it's definitely possible that dude got to 50 sucking that bad... because my son basically just hits one button... quick shot... he's 4... and he's in my group with his 9 year old sister and my fiancee... so it's not like I have unleashed him on the world... he doesn't even know how to join groups... if you see a Ranger doing crazy stuff in the woods... that might just be him.... but he can't ruin the game for you... he can't even read.. although I have removed the 2 kids from all chat channels and switched the chat tabs to combat only.

    So I think he will one day make it to 50 if I pay for his acct (free trial stuff right now)... so just about anyone can...

    So if you can do that... and 100 +focus or 100 +hit is not all that hard to get... what do you do to separate the bad players from the almost acceptable?

    This is not just about him... it's also about every "Hi this is my first attempt at tanking.. bear with me" group you have ever joined.... we have ALL been in them... and often they are less than fun.

    Easy... a Chronicle... a SOLO chronicle... and you MUST PASS it as a role to queue as that "role" in a expert mode dungeon.

    The chronicles should "test" your ability to do that role...

    As an example... lets say a Caravan quest..... it's a group of 4 people to protect the caravan... not 5.

    SOLO... I can't stress that enough... SOLO... the other 3 toons must be NPCs

    TANK - You have to maintain aggro and absorb damage... while some archer or something in the caravan picks the mobs off one by one... and some NPC is healing you.

    DPS - You are the archer or whatever in that caravan... no one is going to heal you except like Cadence heals from a bard in the caravan

    Healer - you must heal the tank.. and only the tank... but then again since the DPS toon and tank toons are NPCs it would be safe to set ALL toons other than tank to generate ZERO aggro when there is a player in the role of healer... so no one really needs to heal the DPS or support toon.

    Support - you must heal and buff the party other than the tank.

    If you fail to pass the "trial of the caravan" or whatever you want to call it... you should not be allowed to do expert dungeons or raid as that role on that toon.

    The Chronicle of Attunement or whatever the first Chronicle was called was mildly challenging when you first hit 50 in crappy gear... but it is truely a SOLO chronicle... it's not testing your ability to work as part of a team... so it does not serve the same purpose... plus it's not a requirement to pass that to enter expert mode dungeons etc.

    This would help not just the crappy players... which apparently this dude was... but also the people who leveled up as a rogue DPS... and suddenly they are like "I want to try tanking" they have NO WAY of testing this skill currently without getting people upset with them.... I know on my cleric and my rogue I want to try tanking but I don't want to subject people to my inexperience. I play a warrior tank as my main but it's different to know your timings etc on when certain taunts are available again etc.

    So since this would also be a way to learn how to handle a new role... and tanks are in short supply... you can FIX the dungeon queue issue of being so tank dependent by letting people learn how to tank in a "safe and friendly SOLO environment"

    Anyone else think this is a good idea?

  2. #2
    Champion Highland's Avatar
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    Currently the gear you need is just low imho and trions idea is:

    - Questing lvl 50 gear
    - Chronicle lvl 50 gear
    - Expert lvl 50 gear
    - Raid T1 gear (10man DH, GP, 20man GSB /RoS)
    - Raid T2 gear (10 man Rotupuh, 20man HK)

    The main problem with this is, if a player knows what he's doing he can pull with questing gear enough for an expert. Although the rest is carrying him slightly.

    If the player has no idea what he's doing: Crap dps/heals/tanking.
    I once encountered a player with full pvp gear (old p8 set) in Iron tombs, he pulled about 200 to 400 dps with it, prolly had no idea what focus means and even worse prolly a bought account.

    In pug groups you shouldn't expect your group ever to be skilled and therefor it might get harder if you don't compensate for the rest of the group.
    If I dps, im well over 2k, if I tank I'm well over 16k HP, if I bard, I outheal scrub healers.
    Multiple times I've encountered groups where I pull big packs and need to selfheal as tank so I won't die because the group cant aoe dps over 1.000 dps.

    But then again, my dps gear has 5/7 relic armor, 2/3 hk relics rest top 5 BiS items


    Sooo, no it's not a good idea for them to get past chronicles solo, because they are 2 man (check the warning).
    I'd say let them dummyparse before entering, if they get above the 600 or so, they can click the join button (1 minute parse or something)

    But then you get elitism, so uhm, deal with it or leave the group!
    Last edited by Highland; 02-27-2012 at 07:05 AM.

    Blightweald - DPS Rogue and apparently best bard EU - 14k Achievs

  3. #3
    Ascendant mo0trix's Avatar
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    So you basically want players to learn how to play their classes before inflicting themselves upon others. A more advanced tutorial...

    /Sign

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    Champion of Telara Quietmode's Avatar
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    I remember having this conversation in wow. Having some sort of class test much like the Hunter Epic quest line in Vanilla that tested your ability to kite mobs and use specific abilities at specific times.

    It would have to be a pretty basic test of "skill" though. Something a person in random blues and entry level epics could complete with a little bit of dedication.

    Every role should have an awareness test where they practice moving out of bad stuffz, and then a role specific test as well such as pulling a certain level of DPS, gathering up mobs as they come from different directions, and healing different targets.


    It's been a long time since ive seen dps levels that atrocious though, anything less then 100 sounds almost impossible. They would have to be using tank skills or missing entire GCDs.


    Cleric Tank

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Skoshi's Avatar
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    @ Highland... yeah I was the tank... and I don't raid but my gear is just about as good as you can get without raiding... like almost all 100 inscribed sourcestone block boosting shards... with awesome 4 pieces purple crafted gear set augmented by the Life quest series helm and the ember island pants etc... as a Paladin I literally can maintain 72% block... with ONE good DPS class alive and everyone else dead... I can kill from start to finish a T2 expert trash mob encounter. so I know what you mean by compensate... I can OUTLAST any fight as long as it's not a fight with a timer with lasers moving on on ya etc... where you are MEANT to die if your DPS sucks... with 1 healer no support... and it doesn't need to be an awesomely geared healer... just one that is awake.

    I don't want elitism... I'm impressed when someone parses 5k on a AoE pull... but I am only expecting the basics... if I see someone parsing crazy DPS like that... then I aim for ACHIEVEMENTS ;-p

    @MoOtrix - yes I just want them to learn how to play before torturing us... it's OK if they are 12 years old... or something... I don't care... just don't talk to me if you feel the need to announce to the group that you just farted... but you better know how to play the game to be in an EXPERT-Mode dungeon... it's not called NOOB-Mode dungeon.

    @ Quietmode - yes exactly like that.... something that teaches them that if you don't know how to do XYZ with your class... you better learn or you will never finish this up.

    As far as positioning out of AoE's etc... the Attunement Chronicle helps with that... makes you MUCH more aware of your positioning... but it's not mandatory either to enter an expert mode dungeon.. although I believe it should be.

    Yes 67 DPS made me cry... I think it was because the healer told him to use cloudburst.. so he was trying to figure out what cloudburst was... then he found it.. quit hitting ANYTHING EXCEPT cloudburst... even though the healer specifically gave him like a 3-4 spell routine to run to electrify stuff so cloudburst did more... so when we looked at the parse he had done like almost no damage from anything but cloudburst.

    But even then... I am not sure how you pull off 67 DPS and still be awake... I think my Fiance's cat once did more damage when it laid down on my keyboard (laptop with external keyboard... I was using external.. it decided to lay down on the laptop's internal keyboard when I wasn't looking.)

    ---

    I mean we honestly felt bad for this guy... we tried to have him swap his souls to one he knew better (but he had no other builds) and checked his build to see if he knew how to make a build so we could suggest an alteration... and even told him what order to mash the buttons in... we event took him through 2 bosses.... but we were not going to make it through Arcanis and Ploutonus with him at the wheel... so we HAD to kick him. Everyone was friendly and helpful... but we had to draw the line somewhere.

  6. #6
    Champion Highland's Avatar
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    I think step 1 for that fella is to teach him how to autoattack

    Blightweald - DPS Rogue and apparently best bard EU - 14k Achievs

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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Some people are really, really bad at this game. Don't pug if you don't want to be stuck with those idiots. That's the price you pay for getting extra rewards.

    People who have even the slightest amount of interest in learning how to play will do so by themselves (or, at least, be shamed into doing so after being called out for being terrible) and will just resent another completely arbitrary set of hoops to jump through. People who are bad and don't care still won't care, and you can't force them to.

    And no game developer is ever going to put in a system which makes it literally impossible for fee-paying customers to attempt content, regardless of ineptitude. That's why they have gearcheck bosses - to shame undergeared and terrible people and show them just how far away from being even remotely close to passing the content they are - but I very much doubt they'll ever have a gating system before you can even set foot in places.

  8. #8
    Rift Chaser laughingskull's Avatar
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    I think this idea of a chronicle where u can learn your roles is a good idea. I dont however think it should be REQUIRED to queue up for a random. Trion should do something like this, maybe have a few different versions so if you want to practice you can without it getting super repetitive.
    Dragonskull - Faeblight: <Betrayle> Warrior Tank/DPS
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  9. #9
    Telaran Amuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skoshi View Post
    I mean we honestly felt bad for this guy... we tried to have him swap his souls to one he knew better (but he had no other builds) and checked his build to see if he knew how to make a build so we could suggest an alteration... and even told him what order to mash the buttons in... we event took him through 2 bosses.... but we were not going to make it through Arcanis and Ploutonus with him at the wheel... so we HAD to kick him. Everyone was friendly and helpful... but we had to draw the line somewhere.
    No elitism intended here but, frankly, this is the best, easiest solution to this problem. Either he learns to play or he quits because he keeps getting kicked. Rather than Trion expending dev resources to create a whole set of content to ameliorate (not prevent) a (thankfully) rather rare issue, social pressure can and will do the job. I think we're seeing more of these L2P problems since they combined tiers because the old T1 gate is gone; we got spoiled by the fact that we only ran T2s, which just naturally had fewer truly bad players in them.

    Still, even since the tiers were combined, I seem to get pretty good groups more often than not--though, even without any HK gear, you might well start thinking about maybe going for Achievements when you saw my DPS in your parse, so I may be covering up the occasional baddie's sub-par DPS and just not noticing. And, of course, I usually have the luxury of usually having guildies with me when I run Experts. I almost never run without at least one any more and, depending on who's on, we often just need one or two slots filled. Since we all know intuitively how everyone else will do pretty much everything, Experts are almost always milk runs for me.

    In fact, the only experiences I can think of having had lately that were even close to yours were (a) running alts through Lantern Hook, our Cleric had to switch from the DPS slot the queue gave him to healing b/c the PUG healer wasn't up to it. That fixed it and we ended up keeping the Mage for another run; and (b) last week in IT, we had a the healer who was complaining constantly that the tank wasn't geared well enough until he quit in the middle of the spider boss fight (in short, he'd barely had time to assess the situation before he decided to screw us all). We got a replacement, told him what happened, and he spent the rest of the run wondering what the problem could have been. The tank wasn't as well geared as we were, no, but keeping him up wasn't an issue for the new healer at all (we got several good drops in that run, too, which none of us had any use for, so he was quite a bit better geared when we were done--and very grateful we'd hung with him). The original one went on everyone's ignore list.

    One hopes your guy realized that you all bent over backwards to help and that he needed to do some work rather than getting sulky and put-out. If so, I'd be surprised if he hasn't improved markedly already (if not, well, none of us is likely to see him again; either way, problem solved). You guys handled it well. I've seen more than a few groups just dissolve because people started carping at each rather than trying to help. That's not fun and it certainly isn't productive.

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