+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Loot system idea

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21

    Default Loot system idea

    I've been thinking about loot systems lately, and I think that I may have found a way that addresses a lot of concerns that make choosing a loot system problematic.

    At the start of the raid, each player gets one point per boss and miniboss kill. For loot distribution, the pieces will be auctioned off with these points. For example:

    A Staff drops off of the first boss in GSB. Since they are able to use it, mages and clerics are able to bid on it if the drop is an upgrade. Each player will put in their bids, and the top bid gets the drop, ties wil /roll, and the winner will have the points deducted from their total, then you move on to the next piece. If no one bids, then everyone can /roll for runebreak/vendor/off piece etc.

    The problem that I see with this is what to do if you have to pug someone in after a few bosses down, do you award them points for earlier kills, or start them off at zero? Though, this may be a case by case basis, depending on the group, but it would be harder to pug someone in for the last boss if they have no chance at even a /roll for an orange weapon.

    Anyway, let me know what you think, and if there is any way to improve this system. To me, it seems fairer than loot council, and easier to use than DKP and it's variants.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    289

    Default

    1. How do you reward good long-term attendance? If there is no point carry-over, the dip with 50 less focus than he needs that joined your raid because you only had 19 gets just as much chance at <coveted item A> as the guy who has been to every raid for the past 2 months and <item A> is the only thing he still needs.

    We had this problem last week because a new guy won a Hexed Item from HK because he had a lucky roll (our rules are /roll on Hexed Pieces just to keep it fun in raids). He raids with us maybe once every month and a half and he won an item that a significant portion of our raid regulars still need. That was our fault as officers for not adjusting the rules ahead of time, but you would run into the same problem with your system. Your system is basically DKP with "normalized" points and no carry-over.

    2. How do you prioritize big items (Hexed Tokens and/or relics)? Most guilds that run DKP make big-ticket items have a higher base cost to drive up their bids.

    3. What do you do about the guy who constantly underbids because he needs a lot of gear and doesn't want to blow all his points on the first thing that drops? He ends up winning nothing and because there is no carry-over, he can't stockpile his unused points to DKP-bomb everyone else later on.

    Basically all the points come down to: there's no real way to save points for items you really want and/or save points for unspent nights. So if you're a raider in this system and NOTHING drops for your class that night, those points are forefit. That's why DKP has carry-over.

    This system would work for PuG groups MAYBE, but I can see it being a huge pain to keep track of during a raid and you'd invariably have fights about stupid things.
    Last edited by MajPayne21; 02-03-2012 at 11:05 AM.
    Tenethar -- Cleric -- Justicar Tank/Inquisicar/DPS
    Officer of <Static> -- 11/11 HK -- Wolfsbane PvE

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MajPayne21 View Post
    1. How do you reward good long-term attendance? If there is no point carry-over, the dip with 50 less focus than he needs that joined your raid because you only had 19 gets just as much chance at <coveted item A> as the guy who has been to every raid for the past 2 months and <item A> is the only thing he still needs.

    We had this problem last week because a new guy won a Hexed Item from HK because he had a lucky roll (our rules are /roll on Hexed Pieces just to keep it fun in raids). He raids with us maybe once every month and a half and he won an item that a significant portion of our raid regulars still need. That was our fault as officers for not adjusting the rules ahead of time, but you would run into the same problem with your system. Your system is basically DKP with "normalized" points and no carry-over.

    2. How do you prioritize big items (Hexed Tokens and/or relics)? Most guilds that run DKP make big-ticket items have a higher base cost to drive up their bids.

    3. What do you do about the guy who constantly underbids because he needs a lot of gear and doesn't want to blow all his points on the first thing that drops? He ends up winning nothing and because there is no carry-over, he can't stockpile his unused points to DKP-bomb everyone else later on.

    Basically all the points come down to: there's no real way to save points for items you really want and/or save points for unspent nights. So if you're a raider in this system and NOTHING drops for your class that night, those points are forefit. That's why DKP has carry-over.

    This system would work for PuG groups MAYBE, but I can see it being a huge pain to keep track of during a raid and you'd invariably have fights about stupid things.
    1. If you're clearing HK with a regular group then DKP would probably be better for that reason.
    2. For something like Hexed items, and legendaries I'd probably have something like loot council, or reserve for guildies (in the case of a guild run)
    3. For that guy, he'd have roughly the same problem with DKP. He would have to prioritize what he needs the most, and if he runs out of points, he can always hope for /roll

    As for your last point, with any system there will be stupid fights about loot. I'm not saying this is perfect by a long shot, but at least it's a little more fair than open roll on everything, and a lot faster than loot council. This system forces the raider to prioritize what they want and not try to take every drop they see.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    5,832

    Default

    Well run loot council > all
    Nope.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer tordana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    996

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Well run loot council > all
    Yes, but poorly run loot council < all.

    Even with a great loot council you're nearly assured to have drama of somebody not liking a decision and quitting. If you are voodoo or maximation, no problem get a replacement. For lesser known guilds it isn't as easy.
    Read my Comprehensive Warrior Raid Tanking Guide and Warrior Tank Leveling Guide!
    RIP Affinity. Beta 3 - 5/10/12.
    ID 4/8 | HK 11/11 | RotP 4/4

  6. #6
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    5,832

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tordana View Post
    Yes, but poorly run loot council < all.

    Even with a great loot council you're nearly assured to have drama of somebody not liking a decision and quitting. If you are voodoo or maximation, no problem get a replacement. For lesser known guilds it isn't as easy.
    I've experienced the dark side of a loot council. Didn't really bother me but some others sure take their purples a bit too seriously. Current one is utterly fantastic and I can't imagine or remember anyone getting pissed with it.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 02-04-2012 at 09:09 PM.
    Nope.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Well run loot council > all
    If there are people involved, there is no such thing.
    Last edited by Traciatim; 02-04-2012 at 09:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    286

    Default

    Might work for pugs I guess, but if I there was ever a decent upgrade for me I wouldn't be pugging for it.

    For guilds though? Definately not. Attendance/performance really should be a factor in loot distribution. If you think loot council is in any way unfair, you really need to consider why your in a guild led by people you have so little trust in.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    280

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MajPayne21 View Post
    We had this problem last week because a new guy won a Hexed Item from HK because he had a lucky roll (our rules are /roll on Hexed Pieces just to keep it fun in raids). He raids with us maybe once every month and a half and he won an item that a significant portion of our raid regulars still need. That was our fault as officers for not adjusting the rules ahead of time
    IMHO, when you use roll and it is not on heavy farming instance good way of preventing situation like yours is to have minimum attendance percentage last 30 (or whatever) day for priority.
    That way you prevent guys that show up once in a while or who is in his first raid with you to take items away from regular raiders.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,188

    Default

    Loot council is like democracy. It doesnt really work the way it should. I left my first high progress HK guild (we were 5th in the world i believe to down sicaron) for another (that was at best a couple weeks behind because they had issues with ppl leaving the game back then) because loot council was in place with those running the council and a couple of their closest buddies loot-whoring everything. Half the raid was in T1 raid gear while the other 10, they had 2piece relic gear and full drop everything else. I was a cleric progressing on Grug with still just a T1 raid set using focus enchants on everything plus Maul-of-Feral-Instincts because i had to senticar... Oh well, i did have that focus ring from Zilas tho,

    DKP is flawed at best but at least it rewards those who actually show up.
    Last edited by Alex113; 02-05-2012 at 03:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Champion
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    557

    Default

    DKP is flawed but it also rewards people for bench sitting or being a warm body in the raid who may or may not be contributing. Why should someone who shows up to raids to absorb loot have just as much of a chance at getting it as someone who puts time into learning to play, comes prepared, uses proper consumables and is an asset to their guild. I agree with the PP, Well run loot council every time. I've seen how well a loot council can work for raiders, it rewards you for good performance and being an asset, rather than punishing you for actually wanting gear to perform better.
    RNG is everything

    7/8 ID HK Conq- Prostatus

  12. #12
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex113 View Post
    Loot council is like democracy. It doesnt really work the way it should. I left my first high progress HK guild (we were 5th in the world i believe to down sicaron) for another (that was at best a couple weeks behind because they had issues with ppl leaving the game back then) because loot council was in place with those running the council and a couple of their closest buddies loot-whoring everything. Half the raid was in T1 raid gear while the other 10, they had 2piece relic gear and full drop everything else. I was a cleric progressing on Grug with still just a T1 raid set using focus enchants on everything plus Maul-of-Feral-Instincts because i had to senticar... Oh well, i did have that focus ring from Zilas tho,

    DKP is flawed at best but at least it rewards those who actually show up.
    If you were in SO (http://rift.zam.com/en/achievement/2...ct#Discoveries) I feel like there is more to the story. Were you by any chance a certain cleric in a certain Molinar video?

    Loot council works best as it allows factoring in performance in raids. It also helps that most people don't care about loot since sitting around for 6 months after clearing content guarantees everyone everything except for terrible drop rates on weapons and trinkets.
    Last edited by opaque; 02-06-2012 at 09:45 AM.
    www.maximation.us
    #1 Guardian raiding guild. Check us out if you think you have what it takes!

    -Opi & Opii @ Shatterbone

  13. #13
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,669

    Default

    In a healthy guild with mature officers, loot council is by far the best system. If you are ever in a loot council guild and your officers are giving their alts loot, then get out immediately. If a piece of gear ever goes to an alt over consistent raiders, get out immediately. If your officers are decked out in 3 or 4 relic pieces while you haven't even gotten one, get out immediately.

    DKP is a good fallback plan if you don't trust your officers, but it has to be set up well. I hate blind-bid systems but like open bid systems. I also hate boss-kill-only systems, but like hourly systems. In my perfect dkp system, I would also include a reset for every new tier that comes out with a weighted amount (probably 1-2 items worth) carrying over from the previous tier based on attendence. IE 100% attendence = start with 200 dkp. 50% attendence = start with 100 dkp. This rewards consistent long term members with the first drops. I'd also put weapon relics on a loot council system regardless of DKP. You don't want your members DKP whoring for the best weapons.

    Voodoo uses a loot council (really a Veev council) for all our loot. And Veev runs a hidden dkp system to keep track of attendence/loot/dkp. For relics, we /roll based on seniority (trial < member < veteran) with all members of >2 months being equal. In my ~5 months in Voodoo, not a single player has quit over loot and I can't remember any examples of loot ever being a problem.

    It mostly just comes down to your officers. Good officers = happy members.
    Last edited by Rizaz; 02-06-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Quietmode's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    In my ~5 months in Voodoo, not a single player has quit over loot and I can't remember any examples of loot ever being a problem.

    It mostly just comes down to your officers. Good officers = happy members.
    I dont know about our other classes, but the clerics basically decide ahead of time who will get what.

    We did have 1 person complain about loot... during a GSB run right after HK came out. They lost the relic weapon, Raged super hard, got booted. haha. Can't have bad seeds in the group!



    I remember in my WoW guild in BC we had two hunters that absolutely HATED each other and competed super hard on loot. They would do anything to deny each other loot and raged if the other person got any kind of loot. They both ended up saving for the BiS weapons and raged if they were ever sat. Luckily i was a hunter too so i got all the armor they passed on =p. People like that kind of ruin the atmosphere of raiding though
    Last edited by Quietmode; 02-06-2012 at 10:43 AM.


    Cleric Tank

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    226

    Default

    Ah a loot system discussion. After playing loot based MMOs for many years, there are only two loot systems I can stand:

    1. Loot council, which I have never been in a guild that ran it but it sounds good in theory at least.
    2. Suicide Kings, which my guild invented back in WoW days, and which we ran in Rift as well.

    I've never been able to brook DKP even in all its flavors. It either favors some group of players you don't want to favor and/or it's too much of a pain to administer and slows down raids. I think a good rule of thumb is, if you can't work out who gets what loot while simultaneously pulling the trash on the way to the next boss, you need a better loot system.

    Me and a buddy from our guild did an app on the Google App Engine to run Suicide Kings. We're just checking out Rift again after a few-month break so we're not using it. It'll work for anyone with a Google account so feel free to check it out. It's pretty rough and not exactly feature rich (and also completely, totally unsupported unless we feel like it), but we used it for about 6 months with no real issues. Feel free to check it out:
    http://sklootz.appspot.com/
    Joehunk
    Lieutennant - The Black Company

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts