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Thread: Please nerf or bring Expert Caduceus Rise down to a level that is not intolerable

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Please nerf or bring Expert Caduceus Rise down to a level that is not intolerable

    It's no surprise to the community that the general playerbase has a distaste for Expert Caduceus Rise. A lot of this is due to annoying boss mechanics, and the terrible trash pulls that offer a steep learning curve to new tanks. While Expert Caduceus Rise is entirely doable, I don't believe it is on the same level of difficulty as the other 5 expert dungeons. The majority of the public groups I encounter in either upper/lower usually begins like this: "Oh god, not this one. Requeue after first boss?"

    A lot of this is due to the annoying boss mechanics that makes pugging an absolute nightmare, when we could just as easily pug any of the other 5 dungeons with equivalent rewards for a lot less effort. I'll explain some of the issues I have with pugging these two dungeons:

    Lower Caduceus Rise:

    High Thane Hergen
    This boss is too reliant on having at least two interrupters. There have been a few occasions, not often, that I have been queued for this dungeon with 4 mages and a tank. Now this normally would not be an issue, if the boss didn't absolutely require having 2 dedicated interrupters. Not very many mages, especially new ones, carry around a spec with Arresting Presence. The importance of interrupting can be compared to Gregori Krezlav from Deepstrike Mines. While Death Blast is deadly to undergeared tanks, it is a single cast, and very much manageable by the tank himself.
    The solution: Have High Thane Hergen cast Wild Cudgel up to 2 times per cast series. In this situation, if both casts were to get off, combined with a tick or two of Crystalline Earth, the results could still be punishing, but a tank could handle interrupts on his own.

    Faultwalker Alraj
    This boss, in my opinion, is designed and tuned well.

    Hookmaster Palos
    This fight, I feel, is designed well, and while I feel it's monotonous and lengthy, it brings an interesting mechanic to T2 dungeons that teaches players awareness.

    Ashcaller Zael
    The amount of AoE damage and tank damage going out is slightly overtuned in my opinion, and makes healing this fight an absolute nightmare as an undergeared chloro. The fight also feels slightly dragged out and monotonous, and offers no real mechanics other than to burn and heal.

    Coalgut
    The difficulty with this boss relies heavily on whether or not you are overgeared enough to have to actually deal with the mechanics. The coordination required is not very pug friendly.

    Upper Caduceus Rise:

    Zugthak
    This fight is one of my least favorites in all expert dungeons. At the start of the fight, Zugthak starts off with his damage reduction buff. The group has to wait about 10 seconds after the pull to actually be able to remove the buff, then start the actual fight. The absurdly large platform in which the boss is situated poses a lot of problems when the buff needs to be removed again if the boss is positioned on one side, and the blue NPC is positioned on the other, resulting in a lot of pointless running around just dragging out an already dragged out fight further.

    Rodiafel
    The only issue I have with this fight is the underground phase when Rodiafel burrows and begins tunneling around the entire stage for what feels like an eternity. I believe if this mechanic was changed to one that was time based, rather than HP% based it wouldn't feel so dragged out and pointless for everyone.

    Captain Black Spit
    This is one of the few fights in XCR that I actually enjoy and I feel is designed fairly well. His breath can be very unforgiving to those anywhere near him, but is entirely manageable by a pug.

    Cinderstorm
    I have no qualms with Cinderstorm other than one major bug which I have reported several times with no fix. If DPSed fast enough, during his final 20% burn, it is possible for Cinderstorm to cast Cinderstorm while the lasers are collapsing towards the center resulting in either running out in an attempt to LoS Cinderstorm and getting one-shot by lasers, or trying to burn him and end up getting one-shot by Cinderstorm.

    Headhunter Kulir and Disciple Varash
    The only time I've ever seen anyone wipe to this fight is if the tank doesn't pull the trash pack to the left of the two bosses prior and someone gets knocked back into them. All-in-all, a non-annoying, tolerable fight.

    Caduceus
    I feel Caduceus is designed fairly well, the mechanics are engaging, and it honestly feels like a final boss fight. The amount of AoE damage going out can be a nightmare to undergeared healers, which can be solved with support, justifiable by the fact that it is a final boss fight (i.e. chloros using support for Calyx the Ancient in AP)

    Caduceus Rise is a beautiful instance, but the annoyingly spaced out trash packs combined with several annoyingly designed bosses make it an intolerable instance for those of us grinding away dailies for marks, when we could just as easily requeue for hopes of CC, AP, DD, DSM, and RD popping - all well designed instances.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Algrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Cinderstorm
    I have no qualms with Cinderstorm other than one major bug which I have reported several times with no fix. If DPSed fast enough, during his final 20% burn, it is possible for Cinderstorm to cast Cinderstorm while the lasers are collapsing towards the center resulting in either running out in an attempt to LoS Cinderstorm and getting one-shot by lasers, or trying to burn him and end up getting one-shot by Cinderstorm.
    I agree with this 100%. After few wipes due to "too high DPS" it starts to annoy the living **** out of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by PVStar View Post
    I dunno, I usually stand in the middle of the pond screaming 1v1 me noobs.

  3. #3
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    I can't exactly express my annoyance with folks like the OP who even complain about the lower end content being too hard. I've got plenty of flames and quite the urge to throw them at the OP, but in the end its simply not going to do anything. The original experts probably would've brought you to tears.

    Every single boss in xCR has predictable and manageable mechanics that doesn't require any particular setup unless you're trying for certain achievements.

    If you only have 1 interrupter, interrupt the 2nd wild cudgel near the end of its cast to maximize the time between the hits so your healer can top people off. No one should die to the 2nd hit of wild cudgel unless they were standing in the ground aoe or not topped off after the first. Its a simple adjustment.

    Ashcaller actually DOES have a mechanic for his droplets phase, y'know? They have no threat table and attack the person closest to them. As long as the tank is between you and a droplet, they won't be shooting at you. So the tank can take near all of the hits, which makes healing much more managable than trying to top off 3 brainless non-tanks standing around eating their bolts.

    Cinderstorm's also perfectly managable. dps until first cinderstorm, LoS, dps some more, wait for 2nd cinderstorm if your group isn't overgeared to be able to burn him down. Yes, it might require you to stop dps for a few seconds to wait for the 2nd cinderstorm. But this neither requires a whole lot of coordination nor is it unmanageable by a pug.

    The spread out trash? Its probably the only 5 man instance that forces a tank to learn to deal with packs of incomng mobs, with ranged and small swarmer mobs. Where else do you expect them to 'learn' how to deal with it? Every tank can handle it, with clerics having the easiest time.

    Woe be it that they have instances that requires more than herp-derp tank 'n spank? Pugs vary in quality, obviously. But if you're consistently getting shoddy groups, it might be time to consider the common factor in those groups.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    I can't exactly express my annoyance with folks like the OP who even complain about the lower end content being too hard. I've got plenty of flames and quite the urge to throw them at the OP, but in the end its simply not going to do anything. The original experts probably would've brought you to tears.

    Every single boss in xCR has predictable and manageable mechanics that doesn't require any particular setup unless you're trying for certain achievements.

    If you only have 1 interrupter, interrupt the 2nd wild cudgel near the end of its cast to maximize the time between the hits so your healer can top people off. No one should die to the 2nd hit of wild cudgel unless they were standing in the ground aoe or not topped off after the first. Its a simple adjustment.

    Ashcaller actually DOES have a mechanic for his droplets phase, y'know? They have no threat table and attack the person closest to them. As long as the tank is between you and a droplet, they won't be shooting at you. So the tank can take near all of the hits, which makes healing much more managable than trying to top off 3 brainless non-tanks standing around eating their bolts.

    Cinderstorm's also perfectly managable. dps until first cinderstorm, LoS, dps some more, wait for 2nd cinderstorm if your group isn't overgeared to be able to burn him down. Yes, it might require you to stop dps for a few seconds to wait for the 2nd cinderstorm. But this neither requires a whole lot of coordination nor is it unmanageable by a pug.

    The spread out trash? Its probably the only 5 man instance that forces a tank to learn to deal with packs of incomng mobs, with ranged and small swarmer mobs. Where else do you expect them to 'learn' how to deal with it? Every tank can handle it, with clerics having the easiest time.

    Woe be it that they have instances that requires more than herp-derp tank 'n spank? Pugs vary in quality, obviously. But if you're consistently getting shoddy groups, it might be time to consider the common factor in those groups.
    All I'm saying is that something is wrong when you find yourself queued in either dungeon, and nearly everyone you come across wants to requeue the instant they enter. The zone is not very pug friendly. It is not a difficult dungeon, it's just annoying when you could just as easily get a CC, DD, DSM, AP, RD pop.

    I'm fairly familiar with the mechanics of each dungeon, it didn't long for a group of 5 of us to get conquerors upon release.
    Last edited by Focusv5; 01-27-2012 at 04:49 AM.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara Venditte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Lower Caduceus Rise:

    High Thane Hergen
    This boss is too reliant on having at least two interrupters. There have been a few occasions, not often, that I have been queued for this dungeon with 4 mages and a tank. Now this normally would not be an issue, if the boss didn't absolutely require having 2 dedicated interrupters. Not very many mages, especially new ones, carry around a spec with Arresting Presence. The importance of interrupting can be compared to Gregori Krezlav from Deepstrike Mines. While Death Blast is deadly to undergeared tanks, it is a single cast, and very much manageable by the tank himself.
    The solution: Have High Thane Hergen cast Wild Cudgel up to 2 times per cast series. In this situation, if both casts were to get off, combined with a tick or two of Crystalline Earth, the results could still be punishing, but a tank could handle interrupts on his own.
    As a cleric, I have an interrupt in my heal spec so this isn't a problem for me. I can heal through two slams going off, but I can see how it would be difficult for a lower geared healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Faultwalker Alraj
    This boss, in my opinion, is designed and tuned well.
    Agreed! I love this boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Hookmaster Palos
    This fight, I feel, is designed well, and while I feel it's monotonous and lengthy, it brings an interesting mechanic to T2 dungeons that teaches players awareness.
    For a T2 boss, I think it's perfectly fine. It might seem long, but that's because it only has one mechanic to look for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Ashcaller Zael
    The amount of AoE damage and tank damage going out is slightly overtuned in my opinion, and makes healing this fight an absolute nightmare as an undergeared chloro. The fight also feels slightly dragged out and monotonous, and offers no real mechanics other than to burn and heal.
    Yes, this fight is a nightmare if your tank or healer isn't very geared. I can solo it easily, but I'm raid geared. It's still overly hard, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Coalgut
    The difficulty with this boss relies heavily on whether or not you are overgeared enough to have to actually deal with the mechanics. The coordination required is not very pug friendly.
    This fight does rely way too heavily on needing decent DPS. They should remove the second phase where he one shots the tank. I honestly don't know how to do it the "right" way.

    Upper Caduceus Rise:

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Zugthak
    This fight is one of my least favorites in all expert dungeons. At the start of the fight, Zugthak starts off with his damage reduction buff. The group has to wait about 10 seconds after the pull to actually be able to remove the buff, then start the actual fight. The absurdly large platform in which the boss is situated poses a lot of problems when the buff needs to be removed again if the boss is positioned on one side, and the blue NPC is positioned on the other, resulting in a lot of pointless running around just dragging out an already dragged out fight further.
    Again, I agree, this is a terribly designed boss. Hate it with all of my being. Again, they should just make it a tank and spank with adds to pick up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Rodiafel
    The only issue I have with this fight is the underground phase when Rodiafel burrows and begins tunneling around the entire stage for what feels like an eternity. I believe if this mechanic was changed to one that was time based, rather than HP% based it wouldn't feel so dragged out and pointless for everyone.
    I actually like this fight. It punishes bad people and requires a decent amount of DPS to get him to not burrow 12 times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Captain Black Spit
    This is one of the few fights in XCR that I actually enjoy and I feel is designed fairly well. His breath can be very unforgiving to those anywhere near him, but is entirely manageable by a pug.
    I don't even know how this fight works. All I know is he spawns adds and pukes... It's still really easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Cinderstorm
    I have no qualms with Cinderstorm other than one major bug which I have reported several times with no fix. If DPSed fast enough, during his final 20% burn, it is possible for Cinderstorm to cast Cinderstorm while the lasers are collapsing towards the center resulting in either running out in an attempt to LoS Cinderstorm and getting one-shot by lasers, or trying to burn him and end up getting one-shot by Cinderstorm.
    I absolutely hate when that crap happens. I don't think it's a very well designed fight at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Headhunter Kulir and Disciple Varash
    The only time I've ever seen anyone wipe to this fight is if the tank doesn't pull the trash pack to the left of the two bosses prior and someone gets knocked back into them. All-in-all, a non-annoying, tolerable fight.
    Yeap. Another annoying fight that I don't understand, but endure through every day anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Caduceus
    I feel Caduceus is designed fairly well, the mechanics are engaging, and it honestly feels like a final boss fight. The amount of AoE damage going out can be a nightmare to undergeared healers, which can be solved with support, justifiable by the fact that it is a final boss fight (i.e. chloros using support for Calyx the Ancient in AP)
    I also love how this boss is designed. AOE stuff flying everywhere, lots of manageable AOE damage going out.. Love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    Caduceus Rise is a beautiful instance, but the annoyingly spaced out trash packs combined with several annoyingly designed bosses make it an intolerable instance for those of us grinding away dailies for marks, when we could just as easily requeue for hopes of CC, AP, DD, DSM, and RD popping - all well designed instances.
    I get xCR 8 times out of 10 if I do random. That's why I queue for all of the other T2s individually until I'm locked to them and then I go for randoms. I've been farming T2s for plaques(since 150 buy a PA level in 1.7) and I really hate this place. It's long, the trash pulls are stupid and no one likes half of the fights.

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    IMO Coalgut is the hardest boss IF you have low dps.

    I was tanking this fight where he had 2 rage phases. After a few wipes we

    - move the boss to a spot where we can easily kit him through the crystals
    - dps 1-2 crystals to 10%
    - the tank would mount up and kite the boss around


    It is quite interesting that this boss you almost have to mount up ;p
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venditte View Post
    I get xCR 8 times out of 10 if I do random. That's why I queue for all of the other T2s individually until I'm locked to them and then I go for randoms. I've been farming T2s for plaques(since 150 buy a PA level in 1.7) and I really hate this place. It's long, the trash pulls are stupid and no one likes half of the fights.
    Glad to hear someone else's opinion on this topic. This seems to be common with the majority of us, and sadly I don't want xCR 1/10 letalone 8/10. While I don't believe it should be nerfed to a level that it is completely trivialized, it is not on the level of the other 5 experts in terms of difficulty or fun.

  8. #8
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    I'm fairly familiar with the mechanics of each dungeon, it didn't long for a group of 5 of us to get conquerors upon release.
    That's amusing. Considering a good deal of the achievements were broken upon release, and some of the fixes are slated for 1.7.

    I mean, yeah. Its doable and a handfull of people do have conqueror, but I really would like a screenshot of yours, because I'm really curious what the date stamp on it is.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calibrex View Post
    IMO Coalgut is the hardest boss IF you have low dps.

    I was tanking this fight where he had 2 rage phases. After a few wipes we

    - move the boss to a spot where we can easily kit him through the crystals
    - dps 1-2 crystals to 10%
    - the tank would mount up and kite the boss around


    It is quite interesting that this boss you almost have to mount up ;p
    Absolutely. I've never dealt with 2 rage phases before, but when the DPS was a bit low, we just ignored the crystals and had the tank kite while mounted for as long as they could. If they changed the mechanics so that destroying a single crystal with Coalgut within its pulsing aoe would remove his speed/damage buff rather than two, people might actually use them.

    The problem with the way it is designed now is pugs have to determine whether or not they have enough DPS to ignore the crystals, DPSing the crystals themselves in order to prepare for it is a DPS loss in itself when the mechanic can just be avoided altogether.

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    Sword of Telara Hrimnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    The original experts probably would've brought you to tears.
    I always laugh about that too. I remember the first time we set foot in xDSM we spent 6.5 hours in there. Bosses hit literally twice as hard and we had far worse gear available to us than most of the people in game now. I remember having a magic mit heavy tanking spec specifically for plutonus because his magic abilities hit so damned hard.

    That all being said, i still agree with OP that the dungeon (cad rise) is annoying as hell. Even my guild when we run it in full HK gear for our dailies we still have that desire to just go make a sandwich and requeue after the 10 min timer. It just takes too long, etc.

    Honestly its really a pretty badass dungeon, and i would have LOVED it had it been in the game back in the 1.0-1.3 ish days. But, as late as it was added, and like the OP said, in comparison to the other expert t2's, there's really no reason to run it. They should have just made the gear every so slightly better to make people who are out for t2 dungeon gear actually want to run it. You know, instead of 29dps 1 handers, make them 30.7 or 31.2 or something, as an example.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    That's amusing. Considering a good deal of the achievements were broken upon release, and some of the fixes are slated for 1.7.

    I mean, yeah. Its doable and a handfull of people do have conqueror, but I really would like a screenshot of yours, because I'm really curious what the date stamp on it is.
    http://i.imgur.com/ZAbLd.jpg

    And I know they were broken upon release, we had to submit tickets to receive these achievements after completing each several times:
    Bloody Bothersome
    Rapid Assault
    Last edited by Focusv5; 01-27-2012 at 05:18 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    I always laugh about that too. I remember the first time we set foot in xDSM we spent 6.5 hours in there. Bosses hit literally twice as hard and we had far worse gear available to us than most of the people in game now. I remember having a magic mit heavy tanking spec specifically for plutonus because his magic abilities hit so damned hard.

    That all being said, i still agree with OP that the dungeon (cad rise) is annoying as hell. Even my guild when we run it in full HK gear for our dailies we still have that desire to just go make a sandwich and requeue after the 10 min timer. It just takes too long, etc.

    Honestly its really a pretty badass dungeon, and i would have LOVED it had it been in the game back in the 1.0-1.3 ish days. But, as late as it was added, and like the OP said, in comparison to the other expert t2's, there's really no reason to run it. They should have just made the gear every so slightly better to make people who are out for t2 dungeon gear actually want to run it. You know, instead of 29dps 1 handers, make them 30.7 or 31.2 or something, as an example.
    xDD scarn with tank, cleric heal, full chloro a bard and something else that can probably heal? ;o Now I can solo heal mDD on my alt. kind of a snorefest.

    And people really are making way too big a fuss out of this stuff. Both parts of xCR can be done in well under 20 minutes, and your typical speedy clear of any t2 runs about 10-15 minutes anyway.

    It literally takes 5 minutes longer to do. /faints.

  13. #13
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Focusv5 View Post
    You sir, petitioned a GM for the rapid assault 'cheeve!

    ... cheater >.>

    You edited your post after I made a reply!

    Bloody Bothersome can be awarded normally. Its just that if you fail it once, you can't get it in that instance lock anymore. So you have to do it on the first attempt.
    Last edited by MoonfireSpam; 01-27-2012 at 05:20 AM.

  14. #14
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    The problem I have with Zugthak is that when you stand in the blue circle you're given three skills to choose from but no idea what each one does. The trial and error the first time you do the fight is annoying.

    Some of the trash pulls are annoying as a rogue tank. With just about every group having one ranged mob and one caster I have to rely on someone else to bring along a silence for the caster for a clean pull. I can line of sight sometimes but it's a nuisance.
    Greybriar Guardian Bard

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
    The problem I have with Zugthak is that when you stand in the blue circle you're given three skills to choose from but no idea what each one does. The trial and error the first time you do the fight is annoying.

    Some of the trash pulls are annoying as a rogue tank. With just about every group having one ranged mob and one caster I have to rely on someone else to bring along a silence for the caster for a clean pull. I can line of sight sometimes but it's a nuisance.
    There's tooltips for those 3 abilities.

    And you can manage most of those pulls with a well placed planar attraction, if you're familiar with its range.

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