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Thread: I don't even raid, but I wish devs would stop nerfing.

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara Galdrin's Avatar
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    Default I don't even raid, but I wish devs would stop nerfing.

    You know, constantly nerfing raids post-release is something people hated about WoW... you guys don't have to follow suit here.

    And no, you can't look at the list of nerfs you've done to basically every boss in Hammerknell in this hotfix and say it's for "boss duration" (btw, having your whole raid not eff up over 8 minutes is harder than over 5 minutes, so that would still be a nerf anyways. That's the point of long, arduous bossfights. I mean, the developers of Super Mario even know this one. Do you ever see a Bowser fight where you have to jump on his head just one time, due to "player fatigue"?)

    Really, this will probably just make my life easier someday when I want Hammerknell achievements as a pretty casual player. However, I just think it sucks. It sucks for the experience of the raid, and it sucks for the players that had obviously already been working through the raid as-is.

    And the worst part is, this seems like some kind of raid design staple. What's the problem with just leaving the raids alone? I guess it's .. okay if raids just decay over time to casual-grade, and hardcore raiders are given new ones to work at, but is it really necessary? It makes the world lose some of its integrity when you constantly decrease the value of your hardcore players' work.

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    Champion Cord 8D's Avatar
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    Well, only once a raid/quest/dungeon/event is released onto the live servers does it then become possible to see how well each really "works". For one reason, many/most of the people that spend any real time on the test server tended to be the more skilled/hardcore types. This can lead to the difficulty range of new content being a bit higher than they would like for the majority of the playerbase, which is coincidentally also the majority of their paying customers.

    Also, if you look back through the various tweaks they've made, you'll find not only nerfs to content but also many cases where they fixed mechanics that made content easier. One common thing you would find is the elimination of line of sight issues on bosses, where players were hiding to avoid attacks that made encounters much easier than intended.

    That's just one example of many, people tend to focus on the "nerfs" and rarely mention all the fixes/corrections to content that also made earlier attempts actually easier. Then you have to consider all the other changes outside of the actual encounters that influence these changes. When major (and even some minor) changes are made to the class mechanics, it can often seriously impact the way raids and the rest function.

    So, don't treat the nerfs as something happening in a vacuum just "to make it easy for bad players" as some would claim. Take a look at the overall game and how it has changed as well.
    Last edited by Cord 8D; 09-21-2011 at 08:22 AM.
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  3. #3
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    if you refer to 1.4.1/7 look better at it, most bosses difficulty has been increased, not nerfed...
    lower hp with the mechaninc phases linked to hp% means faster phases with less time to react.
    less hp with shorter enrage timer dont help in any way if your dps is poor, it only means that the fight is faster.
    Last edited by Ruizo; 09-21-2011 at 08:38 AM.
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    Era
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    The nerfs (and hardly so) only made the encounters so they weren't >10 minutes long. If you've ever raided before (wait...you haven't), then you'll experience how frustrating it is to suffer through the same mechanics for 4 hours because of people making stupid mistakes...which become more frequent as the raid goes on.
    Last edited by Era; 09-21-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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    Sword of Telara Gordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galdrin View Post
    You know, constantly nerfing raids post-release is something people hated about WoW... you guys don't have to follow suit here.

    And no, you can't look at the list of nerfs you've done to basically every boss in Hammerknell in this hotfix and say it's for "boss duration" (btw, having your whole raid not eff up over 8 minutes is harder than over 5 minutes, so that would still be a nerf anyways. That's the point of long, arduous bossfights. I mean, the developers of Super Mario even know this one. Do you ever see a Bowser fight where you have to jump on his head just one time, due to "player fatigue"?)

    Really, this will probably just make my life easier someday when I want Hammerknell achievements as a pretty casual player. However, I just think it sucks. It sucks for the experience of the raid, and it sucks for the players that had obviously already been working through the raid as-is.

    And the worst part is, this seems like some kind of raid design staple. What's the problem with just leaving the raids alone? I guess it's .. okay if raids just decay over time to casual-grade, and hardcore raiders are given new ones to work at, but is it really necessary? It makes the world lose some of its integrity when you constantly decrease the value of your hardcore players' work.
    For someone who doesn't raid you surely seem very worried about some thing you don't do.
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    Alll mmorpg's get nerfs and buffs, learn to roll with them or learn to love single player games. Everyone who plays this game signed the same UA. it clearly states GAME PLAY MAY CHANGE. And yes you can disagree with that change. However, for every whinner like you, there are 20 people who like the change.
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    It's not that bad of a change. It's honestly annoying to burn 20-25% of a bosses hp before the fight becomes real. Each and every wipe going through the same exact steps until the boring phase ends. The hp thing was not quantified, so you can't cry about it if you don't know the numbers. 100k hp is no big deal. Instantly starting all their mechanics, as I believe they stated, is more of a buff to counter it. I welcome that change so the first quarter of a bosses hp I'm not falling asleep with boredom.
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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galdrin View Post
    And the worst part is, this seems like some kind of raid design staple. What's the problem with just leaving the raids alone? I guess it's .. okay if raids just decay over time to casual-grade, and hardcore raiders are given new ones to work at, but is it really necessary? It makes the world lose some of its integrity when you constantly decrease the value of your hardcore players' work.
    A year down the line, a new level 50 Raider would have to go through who-knows-how-many lower-tier Raids just to reach competitive level.

    The goal is to keep the lower tier stuff accessible to newer Raiders, and to recognize that the hardcore players will always attempt to keep at the cutting edge.

    The value of a hardcore player's work is not in always being better than what anyone else can accomplish, it's being better -first-. Once that's done, the content that they have mastered is free to be scaled back a bit because by now a new raid is rolling down the pipe that only they will be able to conquer. (Otherwise we risk a horrible and artificial gear inflation just to keep up with the Raiders, which nobody but them seems to like). Not to mention this keeps the population of people who are able to Raid higher. Demanding that Raids be an exclusive-awesome event will only kill the activity later on down the road as fewer and fewer people bother to gear up.
    Last edited by Morvick; 09-21-2011 at 01:27 PM.
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    The fact people don't notice some bosses had their mechanics buffed alongside the HP nerf says alot about modern MMO players. It doesn't matter if the boss has less HP if the mechanics can still kill you in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by CaptFailure; 09-21-2011 at 01:45 PM.
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  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galdrin View Post
    You know, constantly nerfing raids post-release is something people hated about WoW... you guys don't have to follow suit here.

    And no, you can't look at the list of nerfs you've done to basically every boss in Hammerknell in this hotfix and say it's for "boss duration" (btw, having your whole raid not eff up over 8 minutes is harder than over 5 minutes, so that would still be a nerf anyways. That's the point of long, arduous bossfights. I mean, the developers of Super Mario even know this one. Do you ever see a Bowser fight where you have to jump on his head just one time, due to "player fatigue"?)

    Really, this will probably just make my life easier someday when I want Hammerknell achievements as a pretty casual player. However, I just think it sucks. It sucks for the experience of the raid, and it sucks for the players that had obviously already been working through the raid as-is.

    And the worst part is, this seems like some kind of raid design staple. What's the problem with just leaving the raids alone? I guess it's .. okay if raids just decay over time to casual-grade, and hardcore raiders are given new ones to work at, but is it really necessary? It makes the world lose some of its integrity when you constantly decrease the value of your hardcore players' work.

    TLDR: I have no valid opinion on raiding, but here it is anyway.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    TLDR: I have no valid opinion on raiding, but here it is anyway.
    That is the standard reply to 90% of WOW posts, I really do hope we never get to that level here. Of course he is entitled to an opinion.


    Op, if you notice, in the patch notes they specifically state the reduction in time was not to make the content easier. The fact they felt the need to state that is encouraging. Blizzard lost it's integrity a few years back with WOTLK (or late TBC) and I happened to look recently and they nerfed a Dungeon by 30%. That's the only reason I left WOW along with about 50 others, the heavy and pointless nerfs. Trion is not like that as far as I have seen.

    They will reduce dungeon difficulty only as new content becomes available that remains challenging. Trion are not as lazy as WOW either. What they do is add another layer, such as Master mode in dungeons, to keep the more skilled players happy.
    Last edited by Zartanic; 09-22-2011 at 01:39 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptFailure View Post
    The fact people don't notice some bosses had their mechanics buffed alongside the HP nerf says alot about modern MMO players. It doesn't matter if the boss has less HP if the mechanics can still kill you in a heartbeat.
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    lol the super mario analogy is ridiculous.
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  14. #14
    Plane Touched greg_di's Avatar
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    as stated in the other HK thread about the same topic....


    hk has been out for so long now that its prob about time they nerf the bosses so other guilds can progress as well as letting the hardcore guilds progress faster to the ultimate prize of downing akylios
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galdrin View Post
    You know, constantly nerfing raids post-release is something people hated about WoW... you guys don't have to follow suit here.

    And no, you can't look at the list of nerfs you've done to basically every boss in Hammerknell in this hotfix and say it's for "boss duration" (btw, having your whole raid not eff up over 8 minutes is harder than over 5 minutes, so that would still be a nerf anyways. That's the point of long, arduous bossfights. I mean, the developers of Super Mario even know this one. Do you ever see a Bowser fight where you have to jump on his head just one time, due to "player fatigue"?)

    Really, this will probably just make my life easier someday when I want Hammerknell achievements as a pretty casual player. However, I just think it sucks. It sucks for the experience of the raid, and it sucks for the players that had obviously already been working through the raid as-is.

    And the worst part is, this seems like some kind of raid design staple. What's the problem with just leaving the raids alone? I guess it's .. okay if raids just decay over time to casual-grade, and hardcore raiders are given new ones to work at, but is it really necessary? It makes the world lose some of its integrity when you constantly decrease the value of your hardcore players' work.
    You don't raid so you don't understand. Put simply raids are nerfed because the majority of the raiding population is not a bleeding edge guild and doesn't have the patience and inclination to wipe endlessly on one boss. Thats just the way it is. You can't design content like this for less than a thousand people. Its criminally stupid. That is what people fail to realize when Blizzard and Trion nerf raid content. Its because they have a planned content schedule and they want people more or less on an even ground when the next raid tier is released. The reason why this never happened in old MMO's was because no tier system existed in older raid based MMO's. Is a tiered raiding system a good one? I..don't know. Its very hard to say. I think by and large it appeals to more of the player base.

    The nerfs to HK won't be the last, and really these nerfs effect very little overall compared to the nerfs Blizzard did this week to Firelands. But Blizzard is expecting in 2 months or so to have another tier of content out, so they want the majority of the raiders to be prepared. And some of the smaller raiding guilds will probably take 2 months to get heroic Firelands down. Maybe Trion is planning on December for their next raid tier? It wouldn't really suprise me.

    And honestly I'd bet most of the players in the hardcore guilds understand this.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 09-22-2011 at 04:19 AM.
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