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Thread: Gaming and raiding are meant to be fun... so why aren't they?

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    Rift Master
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    Default Gaming and raiding are meant to be fun... so why aren't they?

    Hear me out, I love gaming and most games I play; It's fun and exciting, I've played MMOs before and I always will, no doubt.

    However, I'm feeling some content in the new T2 Raid Hammerknell, isn't really that fun. I get things are meant to be hard, I honestly don't mind wiping to things as we learn, but some things in HK, regardless of how you look at it is, is not fun at all. It broads from boring (Matron), frustrating (Molinar), stressful (sicaron) to cool (estrode), amazingly fun (inwar darktide), epic (grugonim).

    Those are all the feeling those certain bosses give me, without a doubt the right wing on HK first floor are worst and most stressful and bluntly annoying bosses I've come across. Molinar is OK but can get very frustrating if you get a bad streak of RNG. Left wing of HK, FUN FUN FUN. Love it

    How do you guys feel about certain bosses in HK? The fact that i dread clearing the right wing of HK and find it as such, isn't my idea of having fun in a game :P

  2. #2
    Rift Master drizzt459's Avatar
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    Just because you don't like all boss fights in HK doesn't mean something is wrong...
    Old school raid

    pvp

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    Rift Disciple fineaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drizzt459 View Post
    Just because you don't like all boss fights in HK doesn't mean something is wrong...
    mr. negative man, its ok for people to have different opinions than u about content. dont worry everything will be ok for u.

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    Plane Touched Christhree's Avatar
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    I think we're all crazy and just have these rose tinted spectacles about games in the past. For some reason, everyone seems to remember how great EQ raiding or Vanilla / TBC WoW was. We sit around and talk about it like it was the holy messiah which, don't get me wrong I do this also. Why was it so great though? I know the PVE progression race in Vanilla was no where near as serious as it was in TBC+, does that add to the glory?

    Running Riftranks, I've been able to see HK's "problems," and there's a few that really stand out. First off, guilds are killing the upstairs within 5 days of getting there. After I get a guilds grug submission, I always get a darktide / garau submission within the next 5 days from almost every guild. Why is this an issue? It's an issue because there is at least a 5-10 day gap for most of the guilds between Matron > Siccaron and Murdantix > Molinar. Why is the upstairs dying so much faster than the front end of the instance.

    We've already seen front end reductions and I expect more will be on the way within the next 3 weeks. It is probably this fact that has burned people on HK pretty hard. This same thing happened in WoW in BT. Guilds would get in there and be like aww yeah man we're raiding BT. Kill the first 5 bosses and be like, "ok guys we're doing RoS (Reliquary of Souls not River.)" That boss crushed the average joe guild into the ground during BT progression and what's a shame is that Mother and Illidari Council were easier and could be done in much less time. Even Illidan was mechanically easier than ROS and was usually killed much quicker. Going forward, I think it is important for games to make the front end a bit lighter on people and make instances top heavy. WoW has been pretty good about this these days by making instances non-linear. Hk tried but an easy boss Estrode was put behind a giant wall.


    I like the HK fights a lot. Molinar was way out of place for its difficulty, but I was having a convo with a friend about him last night. Molinar is only as hard as it is because of those pillars. If you removed / had a mechanic to remove those pillars, I feel that even his original form would have been much, much easier. If you think about most of the bad rng mechanics that happen on that fight, the pillars not being there could probably fix it. The core mechanics such as 1/9th of the room being eaten up would remain, but it would be a LOT easier to deal with. So yeah sometimes I get in these moods where I wonder when games became a job and not fun for me as well. If I went back to WoW, I know I would have to be in a top 10 US guild again to enjoy it. Nothing else will satisfy me and that's a pretty lame feeling.

  5. #5
    General of Telara Sunspots's Avatar
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    I find it telling that you listed perhaps the 2 easiest to kill raid bosses in the game as the "coolest."

    Sunspots the Retired
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    Plane Touched Christhree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunspots View Post
    I find it telling that you listed perhaps the 2 easiest to kill raid bosses in the game as the "coolest."
    A lot of the harder bosses are way cooler imo than some of the stuff he listed. Having a perma voidzone boss where you instantly die if you screw up along with, a purge rotation that requires effort is pretty awesome by my standards

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    The game is only as hard as the other 19 people make it. Unfortunately, there's a pretty good chance of the fights being a pain in the *** since it's rare to have 20 competent people in your raid.

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    That the incorporial revenants have been made to be non-stationary already axed a big part of the RNG with the fight. The rest of it is basically staying out of fire and boss placement. Its already significantly easier than it was. The original kills were within mere seconds of enrage. there's a whole lot more wiggle room now even before you factor in better gear and the fact that there are kill videos on youtube for people to study and reference.

    The ORIGINAL King/Prince was way too difficult, to be sure. But now-a-days we've wiped more often to Estrode than to King/Prince. Rage of the North immediately followed up by an impale with not even a GCD in between... Random mind controls taking most/all of your healers, etc. Compared to Estrode's RNG, King/Prince has nothing. And people say Estrode's the easier of the two fights, so I don't really see an issue.

    Guilds are progressing through fights faster now because there've been others who've done it already and have posted about their experiences and strategies, sometimes even videos. That the upstairs gets killed within a week of Grugonim is largely due to game mechanics flaws instead of the encounter design. Porters in Garau were patched to be immune to CCs, yet people are still able to due to a pre-existing bug with a warrior ability that has yet to be addressed. Inwar was just a whole boatload of bugs until recently, and from all accounts he has yet to be completely fixed.

    To be completely honest, I loved the original forms of the bosses in HK much better than the current slightly watered down versions. I understand why it was done and have no real problems with it, but it was more fun when it was harder. Matron's AoE one shotting people caught in it, Sicaron's buff granting less of a damage boost, same with grugonim's ants, etc.

    Their current versions are alright, but once you've beaten the harder versions, these new ones just feel like farm content boss posing little challenge.

    And I am very much against nerfing them anymore, at least until the next batch of HIGHER DIFFICULTY raids are released. Nerfing them when Trion releases more Tier 2 raids would just be silly. Its a pipe dream, I know. But they're already coming out with a tier 2 10 man raid... which is probably going to be way too easy for its rewards.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Christhree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    That the incorporial revenants have been made to be non-stationary already axed a big part of the RNG with the fight. The rest of it is basically staying out of fire and boss placement. Its already significantly easier than it was. The original kills were within mere seconds of enrage. there's a whole lot more wiggle room now even before you factor in better gear and the fact that there are kill videos on youtube for people to study and reference.

    The ORIGINAL King/Prince was way too difficult, to be sure. But now-a-days we've wiped more often to Estrode than to King/Prince. Rage of the North immediately followed up by an impale with not even a GCD in between... Random mind controls taking most/all of your healers, etc. Compared to Estrode's RNG, King/Prince has nothing. And people say Estrode's the easier of the two fights, so I don't really see an issue.

    Guilds are progressing through fights faster now because there've been others who've done it already and have posted about their experiences and strategies, sometimes even videos. That the upstairs gets killed within a week of Grugonim is largely due to game mechanics flaws instead of the encounter design. Porters in Garau were patched to be immune to CCs, yet people are still able to due to a pre-existing bug with a warrior ability that has yet to be addressed. Inwar was just a whole boatload of bugs until recently, and from all accounts he has yet to be completely fixed.

    To be completely honest, I loved the original forms of the bosses in HK much better than the current slightly watered down versions. I understand why it was done and have no real problems with it, but it was more fun when it was harder. Matron's AoE one shotting people caught in it, Sicaron's buff granting less of a damage boost, same with grugonim's ants, etc.

    Their current versions are alright, but once you've beaten the harder versions, these new ones just feel like farm content boss posing little challenge.

    And I am very much against nerfing them anymore, at least until the next batch of HIGHER DIFFICULTY raids are released. Nerfing them when Trion releases more Tier 2 raids would just be silly. Its a pipe dream, I know. But they're already coming out with a tier 2 10 man raid... which is probably going to be way too easy for its rewards.
    You have to remember it's the WoW model that brings in the $$ so that's what they will follow. Firelands has been out since June 28th and it's already been massively nerfed and starting next week its getting 20-30% taken off of every boss. Normal and Heroic. That's what the people want so that's what Trion will do as well.

  10. #10
    Ascendant titansgrip's Avatar
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    However, I'm feeling some content in the new T2 Raid Hammerknell, isn't really that fun. I get things are meant to be hard, I honestly don't mind wiping to things as we learn, but some things in HK, regardless of how you look at it is, is not fun at all. It broads from boring (Matron), frustrating (Molinar), stressful (sicaron) to cool (estrode), amazingly fun (inwar darktide), epic (grugonim).
    Just your own perception.

    I am having a blast in HK... even when we wipe for days on end on a single boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    Just your own perception.

    I am having a blast in HK... even when we wipe for days on end on a single boss.
    ^ this. I look forward to every raid night, loving HK thus far.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelightt View Post
    ^ this. I look forward to every raid night, loving HK thus far.
    As someone said earlier I think it really depends on who you are with. In WOW I loved some bosses such as Lady Vashj because we all worked well together. She would have been a horrible boss in a raid that was bad at that.

  13. #13
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    Totally guys and I understand that, It's great you point out some other things as well. Don't get me wrong, HK is a blast for the majority. I was merely expressing my opinion on fights such as Sicaron, I have no problems with the idols, but **** becomes stressful with purging (For the record, I'm not a purger) but in that respect, There is many problems, ranging from ability lag to simple lack of human focus.

    I guess it's me subconsciously showing my annoyance to these fights, not because of what they are, because of the lack of support. For example, customizing emotes from bosses and event triggers to suit the own players needs.

    Every other fight bar the right wing, I thoroughly enjoy most of the time. Matron is just, in my opinion, a boring fight... The 8mins of sitting there waiting for the silly bint to die, then sicaron is the 'lets just get it over with' fight :P

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christhree View Post
    You have to remember it's the WoW model that brings in the $$ so that's what they will follow. Firelands has been out since June 28th and it's already been massively nerfed and starting next week its getting 20-30% taken off of every boss. Normal and Heroic. That's what the people want so that's what Trion will do as well.
    *shrug* There's definitely more money catering to the masses than there is catering to the hardcore raiders who like their content to be borderline impossible.

    HK, as is, is still alright. Once they take the plunge and make everything easy... I may just have to move on. I'm a glutton for difficult games. I've no interest in doing things that ten thousand other people can do.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Really what WoW did was make raiding accessible. Everything is made to be killed by the masses. People are just used to easymode - and hardcore raiders generally like the challenge and the sense of gratification you get when you down something really difficult. Hardcore raiding isn't for everyone - I've wiped on the same boss for 4 weeks straight, 5 days a week before and thought nothing of it. It seems younger players expect everything immediately - and aren't interested in stepping up their game when you meet a challenge.

    It will be nerfed though - that's today's raiding model. Difficult and borderline impossible to give a challenge for guilds who like that sort of thing. Then progressively nerfed down so it's more accessible. That's the model and the one RoS missed by starting too easy which was a mistake. Hammerknell is done right.

    You'll get your wish for easier content - give it a month.
    Last edited by Mayi; 09-16-2011 at 07:53 AM.

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