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Thread: Enrage Timers

  1. #1
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    Default Enrage Timers

    Let me start off by saying that this thread is purely for discussion purposes. I am not complaining about the use of enrage timers. I've never actually run into an enrage timer with two exceptions.



    How do you all think that hard enrage timers have affected this game, and MMOs in general? By hard enrage, I mean that point in time where the boss decides that s/he's had enough fun and proceeds to obliterate the raid.

    I imagine they came into being in order to prevent encounters from lasting hours at a time, not necessarily to prevent cheesing by bring six healers instead of four. But perhaps their inclusion has actually hurt the main selling point of the game; that is to say, what's the point of soul versatility if only certain combinations are the best?

    What exactly is harmful about bringing an additional healer? For one, the more healers you bring, by nature, the slower the encounter becomes. So for a guild that only raids a certain amount of time, it does not become feasible to stack healers. For most encounters, the mechanics cannot simply be healed through. No amount of healing will save you from Zilas' laser or Hylas's AoE cleave. More healing will save you if you have a tank that is limited in mitigation, but talented enough to keep aggro.

    So is it healthy for encounters to have a hard stop, especially when soft enrages are available? Adds that slowly overwhelm, damage that starts to scale up, intense mechanics that require concentration; with encounters featuring these, is a hard enrage even necessary? Take for example, Infiltrator Johlen. He has a hard enrage, but I've never seen it. Either you successfully take him down in phase 4 or you eventually bleed out and die since your concentration begins to waver.

    I do believe that it's possible that the removal of hard enrage timers will allow more flexibility into raid composition, which the continued existence of well-designed soft enrage timers will keep cheesing from happening. Bring 10 healers to Murdantix and eventually your tank will get one-shot. That's good design.

  2. #2
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    I've yet to see a fight where an enrage timer is anything other than a cheap way for the designers to implement a DPS zerg, since by definition the timer enforces a maximum fight time for no useful purpose.

    A group's abiltiy to kill a mob in 10 mins or 30 mins is irrelevant, timers simply make the fight into an artificial and pointless race against the clock.

  3. #3
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    Taken from my original post in http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3090306

    "Enrage timers are a manner of hard enrage (absolute dps check) that can be stacked with soft enrage (not killing adds quickly enough) so that you must balance your dps out. For example, if the soft enrage is killing an add with 400k hp, you could just allocate all of your dps at once to burn it down and the encounter becomes a joke. With a hard enrage you are forced to manage dps and allocate groups to specific duties, making the encounter much more enjoyable.

    I will say that fights that only have a hard enrage timer and no viable soft enrage could be considered lazily done, but then again, let's list these fights and check the circumstances at the moment:

    *Assault Commander Jorb (Drowned Halls)
    *Warmaster Galenir (River of Souls)
    *Isskal (Drowned Halls)
    *Alsbeth the Discordant (River of Souls; more on this at the bottom of the post)

    Assault Commander Jorb and Isskal have no means of a soft enrage whatsoever but rely on movement and execution of interrupts. They are located in the introductory 10-man raid. Warmaster Galenir is the first boss in River of Souls, and considered by far the easiest. I suppose you could consider his mote which spawns a form of soft enrage, but the howls can be fully healed through. Either way, these bosses were not intended to be difficult whatsoever.

    As for expert level 5-man content, there are indeed many challenges in converting these fights to involve dps checks without a hard enrage. As an example of what I predict to be a well-tuned fight in master mode will be Gatekeeper Kaleida. Double the earth crystals will necessarily require more dps than expert mode. Will it be "hard enough?" I doubt it. I'm going to assume 5-man T1 raid content will include the most introductory mechanics of raiding (more easy than Drowned Halls, even) and should not even be criticized for lack of soft enrage mechanics (though a dungeon like DSM, which is being converted into master mode soon, already contains these in expert mode on nearly all fights)

    All in all, I have no issue with fights only having an enrage timer if the fight is intended for the introductory raider or the first fight of the zone, such as Murdantix (although even Murdantix has a soft enrage of dealing more damage over time, though it's nowhere near the issue his hard enrage is)

    I feel some fights truly need the hard enrage timer to balance healers and dps, if they have no soft enrage timer but do require assignments/paying attention to emotes, etc. Look at Alsbeth the Discordant. There is no real soft enrage (you can even let adds build up for the most part and it's not a problem; too many stacks on one tank? Do a tank swap!) and the only thing holding you back from using 10 healers is the hard enrage, which, at the moment is ridiculously long and you can probably use several extra healers and be comfortable. The fight itself does not need to be changed; the mechanics are all there and the difficulty is perfect for a T1 raid. However, in this particular case, the hard enrage needs to be shortened to force you to make tough decisions on healers/dps."

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    I much prefer soft enrages as. In fact, I am not really a fan of pure DPS checks in general. I'm always in favor of giving people options to do an encounter. Giving a hard enrage that is supposed to be tight really limits the guilds options and compositions. Fights like Sicaron Grug, Murdantix.... they are so boring to me.

    I really like a fight like Zilas with a soft enrage. As you go you get more and more minions/magus. Basically, with these scripted encounters, down the line I want some variability to keep it fun.

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    I think Tamgros hit it on the head.

    Fights where the boss gains a magical "I win" ability should be avoided as bad design and soft enrages emphasized. However I appreciate balancing is a really really difficult job and hard enrages provide a nice way to pull DPS reqs out and make them obvious to both designer and player.
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    Most of 'em in this game I'm ok with. Don't really care. A few I don't like. Generally, enrage timers either make sure you can't do something wildly unintended with a bug/unintended mechanic (ie when they added an enrage timer to Jultharin in expert CC to make it so they didn't keep having to fix the terrain exploits on his laser). But some cut off other viable strategies. Going 1 by 1 in raids:

    Duke: His enrage is too short imo. It's hard to hit if you do the usual strats that keep the burn on the boss pretty hard, but it WOULD be interesting to me to have this as a fight you can possibly do with low DPS, keeping all the adds under control safely. I think we hit it once, way back when, when we were still learning the fight, and had some major screwups. I don't really feel it needs to be there, if you don't have enough DPS on him, the adds will just demolish you in some phases and you won't be able to bring him out of the kite before all 4 shamblers are used.

    Johlen: Don't really care. If you have the DPS to kill the bombs, there's nothing else to attack, and he should die well before his timer. Just prevents you from trying to spend 10 minutes in phase 4 poking him with a tank and a healer, which would be fun, and I don't see why it's there, but isn't really a big deal.

    Aleria: Does she have an enrage? I suppose it could factor into wisp management + DPS on her, but if you don't have the DPS to burn her while handling wisps, you'll likely get a soft enrage from too many wisps. Too easy to care I guess.

    Hylas: Only a soft enrage as far as I know, if he has a hard timer it's probably irrelevant.

    Greenscale: I've heard tell that he has a timer, which is so long you have to way overheal the fight or have most of your DPS die to hit it. Something like 15 minutes, when most first kills are 10. Again, it'd be nice if it weren't there to allow for some more bizarre strategies, but meh, who cares?

    Warmaster: I fully approve of his. The fight is entirely about not healing Warmaster. The only reason not healing him matters is because you won't be able to kill him in time if you heal him more than your DPS can handle. He's a first boss, and a DPS check for the instance, perfectly fine.

    Plutonus: Full on DPS race with like 8 soft enrage timers and some coordination, so he's fine.

    Herald: His enrage timer is again unnecessary to me. You'll run out of room to place the idols, get a backlog of adds, and have your ogre tank tanking like 12 of the things if you don't have the dps. I see no reason to give him an enrage timer whatsoever, there's enough soft enrage going on there.

    Alsbeth: Again, unaware if she has a timer.

    Anrak: He has a soft enrage with the stacking buff he gets from his shield, which should be adequate, but I don't know that he has an enrage. He hits like a truck for new raiding guilds, and that buff will easily lead to some tanks getting 1-shot with 4 stacks of his debuff.

    Guurloth: He has no soft enrage, at some point you just have to call the fight for the players though if they're taking too long. If everyone is just running away from all his abilities and not getting any DPS into it, then yeah, a hard enrage is good.

    Thalguur: My least favorite enrage timer. It should be removed. He has a solid soft enrage where you take more and deal less damage, significantly so, as the fight goes on. His enrage is right at the limit of where you can handle his AoE and the ghosts anyway, why bother with one?

    Uruluuk: The end has a soft enrage with skeletons and general chaos, so he seems generally pretty fine as he is. Having a hard enrage somewhere, eventually, probably makes it so you can't just hold him at 40% at some point and wait for battleresses to come up 3 times and get your other members up.

    Since I did DH well after being overgeared for it, I'll skip those...

    Murdantix: Soft enrage works fine, no need for an enrage timer.

    Zilas: Beautifully done soft enrage. Again, no need.

    Matron: Also has a soft enrage that works fine.

    Sicaron: His soft enrage is slightly more than his hard enrage if you h4x it by jumping off. Which is probably why they put in a hard enrage: To make sure people can't h4x it too hard. If you just had 5 chloros and a few clerics with Bresses, you could conceivably set up a Bres rotation that would let you suicide every person who got the covenant and just have the fight take 20 minutes with a bunch of purgers to trivialize that component as well. So the hard enrage just ensures that the soft enrage and the mechanics of the fight have to be dealt with.

    Molinar: **** his enrage. There's no reason for it. If you want to keep all the squares down and coordinate dispels and healing and everything so well that you can carry on sub-40% keeping everything controlled, more power to you. His hard enrage hits well before his soft enrage would guarantee a wipe, and the fight's complicated enough you're not going to want to try and maintain it longer than you have to.

    Estrode: A very long, and increasingly hilarious soft enrage that I fully approve of!

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    All good points! I would like to reference Ahov, though, and ask, "Why is it necessary for an introductory boss to have a point where you simply cannot win?" Would it not actually be beneficial to players who may not be able to meet those DPS checks to have an encounter that they can continuously work at; a fight that would let them get their foot in the door?

    After all, don't all raid instances have trash? What would be the point of trash if not to discourage players that don't have the gear to not attempt the boss? Let the trash serve as the hard enrage timer and let the boss's mechanics be the reward.

    When I think of the encounters I've seen, only one fight actually required a hard enrage. The second boss of GP has mechanics that don't scale up in difficulty as the fight progresses. This is fine because paying attention for some can be challenging in and of itself. But the hard enrage timer isn't necessary for most encounters.

    What could be a better alternative is a new phase. This phase would take the place of the hard enrage. It would be a timed phase that starts about 2 minute 30 seconds after the boss hits 10-30%, depending on the present mechanics and HP. This new phase would have some sort of lore behind it (for example, Johlen triggers a self-destruct mechanism within the room, causing bombs to spawn constantly and randomly throughout, or Oracle summons all the fae-things in the air to her), something that would truly inspire an "Oh-shi!" moment. But something not so insurmounted as an AoE one-shot. Something that could be delayed by skillful play, but so intense that it's not intended for you to be able to do so.

    Which would be more fun? Fighting against Zilas and suddenly exploding? Or fighting against Zilas and noticing that 8 Magus just entered into the room at the same time?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caydin View Post
    All good points! I would like to reference Ahov, though, and ask, "Why is it necessary for an introductory boss to have a point where you simply cannot win?" Would it not actually be beneficial to players who may not be able to meet those DPS checks to have an encounter that they can continuously work at; a fight that would let them get their foot in the door?

    After all, don't all raid instances have trash? What would be the point of trash if not to discourage players that don't have the gear to not attempt the boss? Let the trash serve as the hard enrage timer and let the boss's mechanics be the reward.

    When I think of the encounters I've seen, only one fight actually required a hard enrage. The second boss of GP has mechanics that don't scale up in difficulty as the fight progresses. This is fine because paying attention for some can be challenging in and of itself. But the hard enrage timer isn't necessary for most encounters.

    What could be a better alternative is a new phase. This phase would take the place of the hard enrage. It would be a timed phase that starts about 2 minute 30 seconds after the boss hits 10-30%, depending on the present mechanics and HP. This new phase would have some sort of lore behind it (for example, Johlen triggers a self-destruct mechanism within the room, causing bombs to spawn constantly and randomly throughout, or Oracle summons all the fae-things in the air to her), something that would truly inspire an "Oh-shi!" moment. But something not so insurmounted as an AoE one-shot. Something that could be delayed by skillful play, but so intense that it's not intended for you to be able to do so.

    Which would be more fun? Fighting against Zilas and suddenly exploding? Or fighting against Zilas and noticing that 8 Magus just entered into the room at the same time?
    There's only one downside to that plan.

    Someone has to code it. Why spend all that effort coding this HUGE event that basically, no one should ever see? Considering how much time it takes for them to design, code, debug, tune, then debug more, simple mechanics like "kill mob spawns bubble makes immune to Mark of Extermination", I'd hate to see how long it would take to add an extravagant mechanic like you described to each boss. If they wanted to add, say, a "hard mode" that gave an extra plaque or two or an achievement that was triggered like an enrage timer (maybe after x time spent below 10%) then it might be worth it.

    But otherwise, ideas like that are for single player games really, where you put in all the hotness you can, because that thing you put out is what will be there. But in MMOs, there's always another new thing to work on for the game, so no matter how "lazy" it seems, an MMO is never done, and every single thing that's added takes away from another thing that COULD be added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFunsocks View Post
    Uruluuk: The end has a soft enrage with skeletons and general chaos, so he seems generally pretty fine as he is. Having a hard enrage somewhere, eventually, probably makes it so you can't just hold him at 40% at some point and wait for battleresses to come up 3 times and get your other members up.

    Molinar: **** his enrage. There's no reason for it. If you want to keep all the squares down and coordinate dispels and healing and everything so well that you can carry on sub-40% keeping everything controlled, more power to you. His hard enrage hits well before his soft enrage would guarantee a wipe, and the fight's complicated enough you're not going to want to try and maintain it longer than you have to.
    Uruluuk has/had a hard enrage. We hit it a few times in our tries. I still sometimes wonder if we were the only ones doing week 1 Uruluuk without reflect.

    Molinar: I agree to that.

    Overall I think enrage timers are a good thing because it really prevents people stacking healers and tanks and thus creates a challenge to the DPS, healers and tanks. Just taking an additional tank (trivialise tank swaps etc.) and 5 more healers (just overheal everything) doesn't work and that way everyone (even DPS for a change) have to show that they are performing well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rofltehcat View Post
    Uruluuk has/had a hard enrage. We hit it a few times in our tries. I still sometimes wonder if we were the only ones doing week 1 Uruluuk without reflect.

    Molinar: I agree to that.

    Overall I think enrage timers are a good thing because it really prevents people stacking healers and tanks and thus creates a challenge to the DPS, healers and tanks. Just taking an additional tank (trivialise tank swaps etc.) and 5 more healers (just overheal everything) doesn't work and that way everyone (even DPS for a change) have to show that they are performing well.
    Nah, Uruluk certainly had an enrage timer when it was released. Don't know if they removed/increased it now though. I don't think anyone can hit the timer now.

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    this thread should have an enrage timer
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    I don't have a problem with Enrage Timers but they are a lazy design approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxplay View Post
    this thread should have an enrage timer
    lol.

    Anywho. IMO. Hard enrage timers are stupid.

    I find the fact dumb that if we execute flawless execution throughout the fight we get boned on a hard enrage when the boss has 5-10% HP left. My guild has hit the Enrage Timer on Anrak, Thalgurr. When we were noobs.

    However there should always be soft enrages. IE: If you only take 5 DPS 2 tanks and the rest healers. You could kill a boss for hours without dying.
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    I don't have a huge issue with hard enrage timers like most seem to. IMO, it's a good way for a raid leader to know if you're ready for an encounter or not prior to wasting a lot of raid time and guild morale on a fight.

    Being able to go into a raid with double the heals and half the dps and heal your way through mechanics shouldn't be allowed.

    I feel more like soft enrage timers are an annoyance that distract from the main boss abilities. Especially when handled with an RNG manner like Zilas. If there was a fixed spawn rate of mages and you couldn't pull it off, then cool you're not ready. But to be able to down him some tries and not others with no reference to your raid dps capability doesn't make sense to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebb View Post
    I don't have a huge issue with hard enrage timers like most seem to. IMO, it's a good way for a raid leader to know if you're ready for an encounter or not prior to wasting a lot of raid time and guild morale on a fight.

    Being able to go into a raid with double the heals and half the dps and heal your way through mechanics shouldn't be allowed.

    I feel more like soft enrage timers are an annoyance that distract from the main boss abilities. Especially when handled with an RNG manner like Zilas. If there was a fixed spawn rate of mages and you couldn't pull it off, then cool you're not ready. But to be able to down him some tries and not others with no reference to your raid dps capability doesn't make sense to me.
    Agreed. Some hard enrages I understand because there part of the fight. IE: Warmaster. . Sure it is a hard enrage but I feel it's a soft enrage because its prepping you for Pluto n such and the healing part of the fight is your soft/hard enrage portion.

    Then we have fights like Alsebeth that have a 20 minute enrage timer. (LoL)

    Heralds enrage timer is stupid as well. Because if your over stacking anything your not beating him.
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