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Thread: The Death of a Raider

  1. #1
    Ascendant Inixia's Avatar
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    Default The Death of a Raider

    In the beginning there was a great vision for the endgame, the idea that once you hit 50 playing the game was not something that marked the end of gameplay but heralded the start of a new experience. Working your way up the mountain of challenges meeting and making friends in a guild and learning to cooperate with them to achieve a goal. Each step of the way as you gained better and better gear and worked your way through the myriad of challenges you felt like you had achieved something, and grown with the game and people around you.

    It took teamwork, dedication, and most of all the will to succeed.
    From normal mode 50s to T1 5mans to T2 5mans, from 5 mans to raid rifts, from raid rifts to slivers to 20 man raids. Each step a tangible achievement in both skill development, and in offering gear that was important to build upon for the next step of the challenge.

    That vision is dead.

    We are in a new age of raiding.
    Instead of progression we have "alternate" paths straight to the top level of raiding- Hammerknell.
    Instead of guild development itemization clearly emphasizes the one man army.
    And its not just Trion's fault.

    Because it was us that made this possible.

    -When players couldn't get past t2 dungeons immediately we cried for nerfs, and soon t2 dungeons were trivialized to the point that they were t1 dungeon level difficulty but with better itemization making t1s largely bypassable, and even though t2s were an important skill step between t1s and raiding dungeons, in its stead there was a large gap that left players unprepared. We framed this as helping the "casual" player even though rate of play was not the obstacle. Scarn became a pushover where no coordination was needed and his heat index could be largely ignored for example.

    -Then we introduced greater mark drops for slivers so that matched 20man instances, and then marks for doing lfg random 5man pugs so newer players got raid gear too "because the hardcores had it long enough"

    -Then crafters and plat farmers wanted to be rewarded for their hard work as well, so we made various crafted items best in slot for prehk raiding, with no raid requirement to get those items.

    -Then pvpers wanted to be rewarded as well for their hard work (or in this case persistence) so we gave them best in slot gear too for the majority of both prehk pve and pvp, except for the weapon and focus slots.

    -Then we gave 5 man raids more incentive to play by giving them prehk best in slots or near BiS in such things as wand, and ring slots.

    -At its current state there is precious little of value that needs a 20 man anything to obtain prehk. We are at the progression model of pvp/crafting-> hammerknell. And that last step is a huge leap from anything before it, most, and I mean the VAST majority of guilds out there have very little in terms of raid progression incentive that is within their means. A couple focus mark pieces that arent' replaced by crafting gear and arent' actually too much better, a weapon (only if you need the focus bc statwise its not bis), and darkling skull (only if you use an offhand) are the only mage pieces that even benefit from stepping into a 20man dungeon, and the mark pieces you can just do slivers instead. The organization of 20mans is no small task, and is not incentivized either.

    -And we all like stat boosts and hate nerfs so its not any surprise that over time as plaque gear became more and more buffed, and we introduced powerstones, and synergy crystal slots, and lesser essence boosts, and added more and more better gear without tuning the raid dungeons that raid dungeons became considerably less difficult then when they began. Afterall, the addition of 600-700sp as we well know is no small feat.

    -But why stop there? 1 and 2 people dungeons and new 5man dungeon difficulties will not replace the gap between 5mans and raiding but will instead replace T1 raiding itemization and offer another level of gear between T1 20mans and HK that reduces any need for higher number guild organization.
    The new t2 sliver will offer hk level equipment, and is already reported to be easier and not needing the same organization.
    Gilded Prophecy (one of my favorite instances) after suffering innumerable nerfs from gear boosts and direct nerfs from its addition is being brought even further down to "where its supposed to be" just like t2 5mans were, i.e. another veiled attempt to please underdeveloped players in the name of casuals because raiders "already got to get gear from there so its time to give everyone a shot"


    People need to realize that making content easier and easier, relying less on teamwork and coordination, and adding more and more shortcuts to the last step so more people can get everything does NOT make content funner. Just because more people get more stuff does not mean those people are all happier.

    Content is fun when there is a reason to go through it, when it proves something to yourself, when you develop as a player and a guildie and learn to work with people. In short the quest for progression is not about getting to the end the quickest, its about the journey itself and what it means about you as a player.
    I would love to see an endgame again, a vision for us raiders. Because as it is now there is very little reason in terms of itemization incentive to organize 20 individuals to work together, and there is precious little in terms of a ladder that incentivizes people to keep building on their game.

    -Inixia

    Tldr: The vision for raiding structure that we were brought into the game with is no longer there and shows no hope for future improvement, we place too much emphasis on easy ways to bypass content and needing less organization. If your guild isn't making viable progress in Hammerknell there is no longer much incentive for 20 man guild formation in terms of gear, when better gear from easier organized or less skilled sources outprioritizes most of it. In short this is a plee to us to want an endgame structure again.



    PS Now I realize that this is a very opinionated post on what I see as the current and future state of us raiders in this game, and people are bound to have differing opinions. And I fully welcome disagreements and criticisms, (and expect many of them) but you don't need to be an *** to make your point, remember we reflect the image of this community.
    Last edited by Inixia; 09-04-2011 at 09:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran Raminoodle's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Plane Touched Kudaran's Avatar
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    It's because a lot of the current players, and I mean a lot, are people who came from WoW, and more directly, the WoTLK phase (such as myself). That specific time turned a good majority of players in to people who EXPECT **** to be handed to them without barely any effort. The new players who have no idea what they're doing are also guilty of this, they want things with the least amount of efforts as possible. People don't understand though, the challenge is (has) made it fun. When you got a piece of gear, you should covet it because you worked your *** off to get it. Instead people now divert their efforts to whining instead of actually earning their stuff, and decide to unleash a barrage of whines, until the game company decides to give in.

    It started with a specific company, attempting to make things a little easier for players, but as soon as the playerbase got a taste of easymode, all they wanted was more. And because of this, we have the MMOs of today, easymode grindfests that get boring because there's barely any effort involved with anything.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inixia View Post
    In the beginning there was a great vision for the endgame, the idea that once you hit 50 playing the game was not something that marked the end of gameplay but heralded the start of a new experience. Working your way up the mountain of challenges meeting and making friends in a guild and learning to cooperate with them to achieve a goal. Each step of the way as you gained better and better gear and worked your way through the myriad of challenges you felt like you had achieved something, and grown with the game and people around you.

    It took teamwork, dedication, and most of all the will to succeed.
    From normal mode 50s to T1 5mans to T2 5mans, from 5 mans to raid rifts, from raid rifts to slivers to 20 man raids. Each step a tangible achievement in both skill development, and in offering gear that was important to build upon for the next step of the challenge.

    That vision is dead.

    We are in a new age of raiding.
    Instead of progression we have "alternate" paths straight to the top level of raiding- Hammerknell.
    Instead of guild development itemization clearly emphasizes the one man army.
    And its not just Trion's fault.

    Because it was us that made this possible.

    -When players couldn't get past t2 dungeons immediately we cried for nerfs, and soon t2 dungeons were trivialized to the point that they were t1 dungeon level difficulty but with better itemization making t1s largely bypassable, and even though t2s were an important skill step between t1s and raiding dungeons, in its stead there was a large gap that left players unprepared. We framed this as helping the "casual" player even though rate of play was not the obstacle. Scarn became a pushover where no coordination was needed and his heat index could be largely ignored for example.

    -Then we introduced greater mark drops for slivers so that matched 20man instances, and then marks for doing lfg random 5man pugs so newer players got raid gear too "because the hardcores had it long enough"

    -Then crafters and plat farmers wanted to be rewarded for their hard work as well, so we made various crafted items best in slot for prehk raiding, with no raid requirement to get those items.

    -Then pvpers wanted to be rewarded as well for their hard work (or in this case persistence) so we gave them best in slot gear too for the majority of both prehk pve and pvp, except for the weapon and focus slots.

    -Then we gave 5 man raids more incentive to play by giving them prehk best in slots or near BiS in such things as wand, and ring slots.

    -At its current state there is precious little of value that needs a 20 man anything to obtain prehk. We are at the progression model of pvp/crafting-> hammerknell. And that last step is a huge leap from anything before it, most, and I mean the VAST majority of guilds out there have very little in terms of raid progression incentive that is within their means. A couple focus mark pieces that arent' replaced by crafting gear and arent' actually too much better, a weapon (only if you need the focus bc statwise its not bis), and darkling skull (only if you use an offhand) are the only mage pieces that even benefit from stepping into a 20man dungeon, and the mark pieces you can just do slivers instead. The organization of 20mans is no small task, and is not incentivized either.

    -And we all like stat boosts and hate nerfs so its not any surprise that over time as plaque gear became more and more buffed, and we introduced powerstones, and synergy crystal slots, and lesser essence boosts, and added more and more better gear without tuning the raid dungeons that raid dungeons became considerably less difficult then when they began. Afterall, the addition of 600-700sp as we well know is no small feat.

    -But why stop there? 1 and 2 people dungeons and new 5man dungeon difficulties will not replace the gap between 5mans and raiding but will instead replace T1 raiding itemization and offer another level of gear between T1 20mans and HK that reduces any need for higher number guild organization.
    The new t2 sliver will offer hk level equipment, and is already reported to be easier and not needing the same organization.
    Gilded Prophecy (one of my favorite instances) after suffering innumerable nerfs from gear boosts and direct nerfs from its addition is being brought even further down to "where its supposed to be" just like t2 5mans were, i.e. another veiled attempt to please bad players in the name of casuals because raiders "already got to get gear from there so its time to give everyone a shot"


    People need to realize that making content easier and easier, relying less on teamwork and coordination, and adding more and more shortcuts to the last step so more people can get everything does NOT make content funner. Just because more people get more stuff does not mean those people are all happier.

    Content is fun when there is a reason to go through it, when it proves something to yourself, when you develop as a player and a guildie and learn to work with people. In short the quest for progression is not about getting to the end the quickest, its about the journey itself and what it means about you as a player.
    I would love to see an endgame again, a vision for us raiders. Because as it is now there is very little reason in terms of itemization incentive to organize 20 individuals to work together, and there is precious little in terms of a ladder that incentivizes people to keep building on their game.

    -Inixia

    Tldr: The vision for raiding structure that we were brought into the game with is no longer there and shows no hope for future improvement, we place too much emphasis on easy ways to bypass content and needing less organization. If your guild isn't making viable progress in Hammerknell there is no longer much incentive for 20 man guild formation in terms of gear, when better gear from easier organized or less skilled sources outprioritizes most of it. In short this is a plee to us to want an endgame structure again.



    PS Now I realize that this is a very opinionated post on what I see as the current and future state of us raiders in this game, and people are bound to have differing opinions. And I fully welcome disagreements and criticisms, (and expect many of them) but you don't need to be an *** to make your point, remember we reflect the image of this community.
    I think you are wrong on pretty much all of this. I think your personal opinion is biasing you abit (there is nothing wrong with that, this is a good post). There are alot of guilds currently coming up through the 10 mans and moving on to GSB (the guild one of my chars is in for example). This is progressiion. As existing content gets nerfed new content is added. This is the way of games like WoW, which has been doing that for 2 expansions now. Firelands comes out? Previous raids get nerfed (usually a bit in preperation to allow people to "gear up"). By the time Rise of the Pheonix comes out, the next 20 man will already be on the horizon. There is always something greater to reach for if you are a raider. And while they are progressing on the bleeding edge, the casual raiders are making their way through previous tiers. This stepping stone system I think has potential to be more fully developed here than in WoW, with 2 man content and the upcoming instant adventures providing alternate avenues of advancement at 50 as well as upwards scaling of 5 man content. You will notice 5 mans can now get raid 1 gear, as raid 2 gear is starting to become more widely available.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 09-03-2011 at 09:34 PM.
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  5. #5
    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Well said, and in saying that, I blame the WoW crowd.

    Flame away, but the cry babies that entered the MMO community years ago have killed anything and everything that a gaming community used to stand for and now we have this watered down, rehashed out crappy attempts at catering to that cash cow that Blizzard has injected into the MMO community.

    Games don't survive for years upon years now and the population gets so thin that it becomes unbearable to last the storm.

    The gaming community has become lazy and with several titles being released on a yearly basis now, it's hard to even keep your guild interested with everyone wanting to jump ship and try the grass is greener mentaility in the next game, until of course, the casual mentaility kills that game too.

    People take casual vs hard core out of context, you can be a casual player and play for years to accomplish something that someone did in 6 months that jumped ship. Defining casual and hardcore players is all relative, someone who plays a game for years and years, casually is just as hardcore as someone who does for 6 months then runs away because the dev team isn't focusing directly on them.

    People aren't to blame to be honest, in all reality, the companies are to blame for milking this cow as long as they have. Think about it, nothing has changed with MMO's in the last 15 years, it is the same rehashed goal as it always has been. Talk to NPC, get quest, kill nasties, get items/xp/cash, hand in quest, hit max level, raid, win. It is the same over and over and over and over, the only thing that ever changes is the atmosphere it is set in.

    Companies use the Blizzard injected cash cow to munipulate cash gain in a much more faster time frame, hype is generated to esculate a games notoriety to extreme heights, blowing it out of the perverbial water, making it sound like all this new game break technology is being brough forwards. This generates enough intial box sales at the start to cover all R&D costs and maybe some for profit. Over the next 3 - 6 months, the population will die down a little but not too much. After the 6 months period, new games are due to be released and with so, the population who is disgruntled or feels like they are not getting thier money worth, start the negative banter of demoralizing the comunity both ingame and on the forums. The only thing a company cares aboout at this point, is keeping enough subscriptions to make a profit, most if not all of thier costs have been covered, investors have made thier money, only thing left is to maintain a 200k or so subscriber based to keep profitiering, doesnt matter if the turn is big on a monthly basis, people come, people go, just as long as that goal is maintained.

    How do they do this? 7 days free, come back, check us out, new patches, etc etc, More advertisement hype to capture people back to the game for another month or two.

    The entire market today doesn't have the gamers in mind, they only have making money on thier minds.

    Until games are once again designed and built for gamers in mind and run by a company like Verdant many years ago who were die hard gamers who designed and built an mmo for gamers, we will always have this money grabbing rehash that companies push onto us.

    So, tl:dr, who do we blame? Companies for milking us or oursleves for buying into it?
    Last edited by Taemek; 09-03-2011 at 09:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    My solution would be to get a job.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara Silverangel69's Avatar
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    I hope we are seeing the death of raiding. Monkeys create magnificent sand castles, proceed to take them way too seriously, then the sand castles erode away in the tide. I'm not going to cry.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Kudaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BusyHandz View Post
    My solution would be to get a job.
    People still work, and play. Most raiding base their raiding schedule late at night for this exact situation... thus 'getting a job' has nothing to do with the fact that meaningful raiding is a dead idea. I don't take raiding too seriously, I just like to earn the **** I'm getting. I don't like handouts.
    Last edited by Kudaran; 09-03-2011 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kudaran View Post
    People still work, and play. Most raiding base their raiding schedule late at night for this exact situation... thus 'getting a job' has nothing to do with the fact that meaningful raiding is a dead idea. I don't take raiding too seriously, I just like to earn the **** I'm getting. I don't like handouts.
    Was talking about the scary emotional investment some people put into it.

    Maybe 'get a life' would be more apt.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Kudaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BusyHandz View Post
    Was talking about the scary emotional investment some people put into it.

    Maybe 'get a life' would be more apt.
    Ah, I see. Well then.

    I'd have to agree with you then. Raiding is fun, even though it easy, but it isn't life.
    Last edited by Kudaran; 09-03-2011 at 10:01 PM.

  11. #11
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    Next patch (1.5) is coming out with Master Modes and new 10-man Sliver.

    Master Modes being the new alternative to RoS/GSB since gear from Master Modes will have itemization in the same rank as RoS/GSB.

    Less of a journey for us raiders and more content for casuals to do.

    I agree wholeheartedly with what the OP said.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer intrinsc's Avatar
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    Making stuff easy is a necessity, not an option, for a game to thrive. Look at WoW, every raid that is released introduces nerfs to the previous tiers and ways for people to completely bypass the last tiers. Without this, there would be no incentive for new people to pick up the game. With the massive turnover MMOs have, this is the only way that companies can not only keep growing, but keep their heads above water in an era where the consumer demands MORE MORE MORE FASTER MORE POLISHED. In the world of Trion, a company that is clearly taking off, but needed a lot of years to develop the Rift infrastructure and game, it is still probably trying to break into the black, so to them gaining more subscribers is very, very important.
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  13. #13
    Rift Master drizzt459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverangel69 View Post
    I hope we are seeing the death of raiding. Monkeys create magnificent sand castles, proceed to take them way too seriously, then the sand castles erode away in the tide. I'm not going to cry.
    They say ignorance is bliss.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by drizzt459 View Post
    They say ignorance is bliss.
    Apparently the guy you quoted knows whether that is true or not.

  15. #15
    Rift Master drizzt459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelightt View Post
    Apparently the guy you quoted knows whether that is true or not.
    I'll go with another one, "what you don't know cannot hurt you."
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