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Thread: 10m VS 20m Raiding

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    Lightbulb 10m VS 20m Raiding

    Hello all,

    So our guild is about to start raiding and we are very excited to get into the 10m content. We are a smaller guild so we appreciate Trion looking out for the little guys/gals. Drowned Halls will likely be our first venture because it appeals to our senses more then GP. We will of course be hitting both and are excited to see everything they have to offer. My main concern and the reason for this post is to get some ideas on one particular thing: Why dont the 20m content raids have 10m options? Now before I expand on that I understand why the current 10m content can not be made into 20m, they dont exactly meet the scale of the 20m content because they are too small for 20 people. HK is probably the most elaborately designed raid that everyone wants to see but we are interested in seeing GB and RoS as well. Raiding content is alot of fun to alot of people, not necessarilly for the loot but for the design and mechanics.

    The idea is simple really,

    1: Some of the mechanics in current 20m content would need to be altered slightly to adjust to the number of players participating in an encounter.
    2: Health pools of course would need to be adjusted.
    3: The loot needs to be scaled down to be a little less rewarding.

    Honestly its difficult to manage a minimum of 20 players to be able to tackle raid content. Some people love it and I am all for their needs but the smaller teams want to be able to see RoS, GB and HK as well. It obviously worked well for that other game. I know there are those that will argue that maintaining 20 people is part of the challenge... well maybe that is true but it sure isn't any aspect of fun for the game.

    We're not asking for Trion to take away from any difficulty or challenge, just the number of players needed to get into the content. I have seen 2 guilds myself who were on a very good roll that have stopped raiding for the past 2-3 weeks because of member loss for various reasons beyond the control of the their leaders. Being able to take their best 10 players into HK would alleviate the pain they are having to endure right now.

    Lastly, I know Chronicles and Master Modes are being brought into the picture to offer something to those smaller groups that want to see these things and get a challenge but it just isn't the same. It matters to most of us where we are when we play. Seeing the same dungeons yet again just a little harder will be fun for awhile but it will get old fast. We haven't even stepped into the 10m content yet, and it may seem odd making these requests until the fact. I however like to be prepared and I don't want our guild to wipe DH and GP up and then have nothing else to do.

    So Trion and Community I ask you one question: What's wrong with just 10 players seeing and killing Akylios?
    Last edited by Vyndeta; 09-03-2011 at 07:12 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndeta View Post
    Hello all,

    So our guild is about to start raiding and we are very excited to get into the 10m content. We are a smaller guild so we appreciate Trion looking out for the little guys/gals. Drowned Halls will likely be our first venture because it appeals to our senses more then GP. We will of course be hitting both and are excited to see everything they have to offer. My main concern and the reason for this post is to get some ideas on one particular thing: Why dont the 20m content raids have 10m options? Now before I expand on that I understand why the current 10m content can not be made into 20m, they dont exactly meet the scale of the 20m content because they are too small for 20 people. HK is probably the most elaborately designed raid that everyone wants to see but we are interested in seeing GB and RoS as well. Raiding content is alot of fun to alot of people, not necessarilly for the loot but for the design and mechanics.

    The idea is simple really,

    1: Some of the mechanics in current 20m content would need to be altered slightly to adjust to the number of players participating in an encounter.
    2: Health pools of course would need to be adjusted.
    3: The loot needs to be scaled down to be a little less rewarding.

    Honestly its difficult to manage a minimum of 20 players to be able to tackle raid content. Some people love it and I am all for their needs but the smaller teams want to be able to see RoS, GB and HK as well. It obviously worked well for that other game. I know there are those that will argue that maintaining 20 people is part of the challenge... well maybe that is true but it sure isn't any aspect of fun for the game.

    We're not asking for Trion to take away from any difficulty or challenge, just the number of players needed to get into the content. I have seen 2 guilds myself who were on a very good roll that have stopped raiding for the past 2-3 weeks because of member loss for various reasons beyond the control of the their leaders. Being able to take their best 10 players into HK would alleviate the pain they are having to endure right now.

    Lastly, I know Chronicles and Master Modes are being brought into the picture to offer something to those smaller groups that want to see these things and get a challenge but it just isn't the same. It matters to most of us where we are when we play. Seeing the same dungeons yet again just a little harder will be fun for awhile but it will get old fast. We haven't even stepped into the 10m content yet, and it may seem odd making these requests until the fact. I however like to be prepared and I don't want our guild to wipe DH and GP up and then have nothing else to do.

    So Trion and Community I ask you one question: What's wrong with just 10 players seeing and killing Akylios?
    There are 2 10 man raids, which you haven't started yet, there's not a lack of content. There's also a new 10 man on the horizon which by the time you're geared up from GP/DH you may be ready for.

    If thats not enough, go recruit a few more people, or put together a raid with another guild. Perhaps you'd prefer cry on the forums for Trion to add raids to the LFG tool?

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    Well with the risk of sounding like an ***, it's simple too easy. The difficulty in the 20 man raids lies predominantly in the fact the there are 20 people you have to organise.

    It would simply be impossible to adapt the existing 20 man raids into 10 mans without completely reworking the entire mechanic and dynamic of the fight. This, I assume, is why they are creating more ten mans in the upcoming months.

    If people could easily form a group and dive into any raid, then the entire population would quickly become saturated with top raid level toons that have nothing to do but dance in sanctum.

    20 people is not that many to have in a guild. If you lack that number this gives you a great reason to work towards your next goal, if you need to level up a few people to fill the slots. Don't cheat yourself out of earning the carrot on the end of the stick.
    Last edited by BusyHandz; 09-03-2011 at 09:52 PM.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BusyHandz View Post
    Well with the risk of sounding like an ***, it's simple too easy. The difficulty in the 20 man raids lies predominantly in the fact the there are 20 people you have to organise.

    It would simply be impossible to adapt the existing 20 man raids into 10 mans without completely reworking the entire mechanic and dynamic of the fight. This, I assume, is why they are creating more ten mans in the upcoming months.

    If people could easily form a group and dive into any raid, then the entire population would quickly become saturated with top raid level toons that have nothing to do but dance in sanctum.

    20 people is not that many to have in a guild. If you lack that number this gives you a great reason to work towards your next goal, if you need to level up a few people to fill the slots. Don't cheat yourself out of earning the carrot on the end of the stick.
    I understand what your saying and I can see both sides. I'm not asking for PUGable raids or anything of that nature, just a 10m version of the raids with relatively the same difficulty level. Noone from my Guild is asking for handouts, just another option. Raiding takes work, and it should. Don't mistake my post for a QQ, The other game is capable of pumping out difficult 10m content... they choose not to anymore and thats why we are here instead. We just dig the 10m scene. Others do too I'm sure they just aren't as opinionated on the forums as others I suppose.
    Last edited by Vyndeta; 09-03-2011 at 10:04 PM.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    One thing I did not get to add is all that I am seeing about the ease of 10m content. And 4 bosses in each one? My only reason for persisting here is that 10m content doesn't have to be a cake walk. 4 bosses is hardly satisfying. The 10m crews deserve to work for our kills as well, we don't want to get it down to a 2 hour full clear and wipe our hands clean. We want to feel like we have accomplished something... we want to freak out with our guildies when we finally down that boss that wiped us 20 times prior.

    Personally at this point I just hope the 10m content isn't nerfed into oblivion by the time we get there.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser tamgros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndeta View Post
    Personally at this point I just hope the 10m content isn't nerfed into oblivion by the time we get there.
    This is kinda of my problem with Raiding in general. There's such varying lvls of abilities and playtimes it's impossible to please everyone. There are people who spend a lot of time raiding, but aren't good enough for the content so eventually it gets nerfed so they can progress through it. There are others who are more casual about the progression, but they are talented enough to do it the original way. This is just one example of two types that it's hard to please. Multiple difficulty levels or a slider makes some sense, but it's hard to reconcile that with gear rewards.

    On top of that, it's really hard to be competitive with raiding because there are so many other factors to it.

    I think I'm just more into sandboxy games where players "make the content". It's nothing against people who like raiding, but any time you have designed/taylored content like raiding, the end product just may not be for you.

  7. #7
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    I don't think 10 man content can ever be properly tuned to be as difficult as 20 man content.

    Just like 10 man content can never be accurately scaled down to 5 man.

    Just like 5 man dungeons can never be as difficult as solo dungeons.

  8. #8
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    The time it takes to properly scale an encounter needs to be taken into consideration as well. For example, a fight like Murdantix would be horribly easy with 10 people, given that the main challenge in this fight is proper tar management. Should the number of people be reduced, and given the size of the room, itself, there would be no real challenge.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser CaptFailure's Avatar
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    Let me sum up my opinion on the matter in precise detal.

    NO
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingstock
    SWTOR will hit a big enough audience on it's own to be successful. Know why? Because Star Wars has fanbois just like you: that would buy anything that says SW on the box that know nothing about Bioware.
    When defending something, the best course of action is not to admit the only thing going for it is blind devotion.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    They are adding a new 10 man for you small guilds.

    WHERE IS THE 72 MAN CONTENT!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  11. #11
    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    A lot of the encounters just wouldn't work in their current state scaled down to 10 people - there'd need to be quite significant changes to the mechanics and timings of things, unless they really expect 10-man groups to have 3 people with viable tank specs and gear. A lot of the time there's just too many different things going on at once, which is fine in 20-mans (as long as people can coordinate things properly, which is half the challenge in the first place) so they'd need to take out a lot of mechanics to account for having half as many of everything.

  12. #12
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    What would be so wrong with this idea? I don't get it. Sorry for bringing up wow again but didn't wow have 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid instance? It was pretty simple I thought: the 10-mans dropped loot one tier below the 25-mans.

    I get that fights that were designed, with the devs knowing that there would be 2 versions of everything, would be different from the fights that were designed only for 20 people. But I don't think one can say it's simply impossible to do, when it has in fact been done before.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camenae View Post
    What would be so wrong with this idea? I don't get it. Sorry for bringing up wow again but didn't wow have 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid instance? It was pretty simple I thought: the 10-mans dropped loot one tier below the 25-mans.

    I get that fights that were designed, with the devs knowing that there would be 2 versions of everything, would be different from the fights that were designed only for 20 people. But I don't think one can say it's simply impossible to do, when it has in fact been done b
    It comes down to resource allocation. Most would rather have dev time spent on actual new content instead of making existing content twice.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    Though valid points can be made all day on that matter I also think in this direction as well. How many people are ever going to see Hammerknell in it's entirety? To have your dev team spend so long on perfecting content and creating such a beautiful environment is a waste if only your 20 man croud will see it. The Murdantix example makes since above but maybe they could throw in another mechanic that requires something else.

    Noone likes when WoW is mentioned but they did deliver solid content and they have 398467908276 million subs for a reason... They cater to everything they can. I know some people aren't going to like my last comment but it just seems silly to make seperate content for 20m crouds and seperate (easier) content for the 10m croud. It kinda feels as if they deem us less skilled because we don't roll 20 deep. It took every bit of the same skill to down heroic mode raids in WoW with 10 people as it did 20. I will even go so far as to say this... some 25 man encounters were much easier then there 10m counterparts in WoW because 10m content allowed for fewer mistakes on alot of occasions.

    All we're looking for here is some equality, I don't want you 20m guys to lose anything and I still think you deserve better loot for having 20 people on the same page during your encounters. I honestly don't think it would delay content that much longer to deliver a 10m version of raid dungeons.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Well however you feel about it - 10mans of 20mans just won't be - unless Trion changes its politics - since that idea has been picked up and trashed sometime pre Beta afaik and the current sliver system was introduced instead.

    if you can't get 20 ppl alone - well find another guild that is in the same boat and do the content - if not well then not.

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