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Thread: So you wanna join the LFG tool for an expert dungeon? The definitive guide

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    Telaran
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    Default So you wanna join the LFG tool for an expert dungeon? The definitive guide

    It has become very frustrating lately dragging people through experts. Running an expert and it falling apart after an hour and only 3 bosses down because 2 people couldn't pull their weight has become increasingly more common and even more frustrating. It shouldn't take the most newb of groups in blues more than an hour to do any t2, provided they are prepared.


    The best news is, it's not your gear! Well, for the most part. You will need to spend time and/or plat gearing up to tank, and clerics and mages are also going to be a bit more dependent on getting their stats up to be effective but more than anything it's your build and your knowledge of that build.

    The Goal
    The hope is to offer a quick reference here to all the class forums and their most up-to-date builds. When people are struggling in the group it's rarely because they are a bad player, they are just not informed. Forums can be imposing and for some just annoying to deal with. Some people, especially newer ones, seem to have no idea there are even class specific forums filled with great information on current builds and macros.

    This is not a guide to the strategies for bosses, nor how to play your class, but where to go to find out.

    Who this is For
    This is for people new to the level 50 game and even those knew to the forums needing help navigating where to go to find info on their class. As well, for the people not so new but still in need of help with their builds.
    If you can answer yes to and of these questions this is probably a good place to be...
    Do you not know the macros for your class?
    Do you still think paladin/reaver tank builds are good?
    Do you struggle to hit 600+ single target DPS?
    Do you think sent/puri is the ultimate cleric healing spec?
    Do you just not know the spec you should be?

    Your Build
    The soul system in rift was a cool selling point, "OH MAN SO MANY COMBINATIONS!!" but within a few weeks that was completely nullified. Each of the 4 classes has a limited number of builds that actually work. If you want to tank as a warrior, you are going to need to be one of a few different builds. If you are going to heal as a cleric you really have a choice of only a couple builds. If you are going to DPS as a rogue, you only have a few choices to choose from etc etc etc etc.

    Now a lot of those builds (which will be covered) are semi-open to interpretation. A build may be suggested as something like 38/22/6 but when looking into them you'll notice there are typically 6-12ish points (maybe more, maybe less) that you can play around with in various spots to achieve a bit of a different outcome without much change to it's initial purpose. For the most part you do not need to squeeze everything you can out of your abilities for experts, if you drop something that's going to cut 50dps it's not going to be the end of the world, but if you're already struggling to hit 600dps you probably shouldn't.

    Parsing
    If you are at the learning stages parsing is a must. Anyone who says otherwise is a very unfortunately misinformed fool. As DPS you need to check that you're working properly, as a tank you need to be informed of who may cause aggro issues for the purpose something like intercept and just general knowledge, as a healer you need to ensure you're hps is up to par and similarly what dps may cause an issue with aggro. Parsing gives you such a leg-up on your skills and gives you just great over-all knowledge of what the group is up to.

    Macros
    The game is possible without macros, but similar to Parsing, you are instantly handicapped and absolutely in every situation possible worse off than the guy standing next to you using the same build but using macros while you're not. All the links to come will be to threads that will include all the macro information needed.


    How this is broke down
    I plan to break down each of the 4 roles the LFG tool offers. Then in each role break it down into what classes are available and quick little 411 on them and then links to their respective pages in their class forum.

    FIRST THINGS FIRST- NEW TO A DUNGEON
    I have yet to do a LFG pug with someone who showed up and said "this is my first time here" and the group get upset and kick them. Every time everyone in the group has been more than willing to help them through strategies and bosses.
    What is incredibly annoying though are the people who are new to a dungeon but dont say anything, then 2 or 3 bosses later after a half dozen deaths they go "well i'm new so i'm not sure what's going on."
    TELL THE GROUP THE MOMENT IT'S FORMED IF IT'S YOUR FIRST TIME THROUGH.

    DPS
    DPS seems to be the most common aspect of a group to struggle. Fairly simple to understand because you can Q as DPS in a T2 in most cases the very second you hit 50, so they are unfortunately littered with poorly prepared players. It is also very frustrating because the 2 more common classes for DPS, rogues and warriors, can both hit 700-800 single target DPS with nothing but inexpensive crafted items and lvl 46+ quest gear. Their DPS is highly dependent on the build, your clerics and mages though will struggle a bit more behind them as even with the right build they require more gear to scale up to good numbers. But in the end it's just more frustrating than anything else to see someone in a T2 struggling to hit 5-600dps when it doesnt take any effort to hit 700+.

    WARRIORS
    -You've got ~3 current builds to chose from. Also probably the most well informed and amazingly awesome community of players offering up the information on new builds and changes, bookmark the warrior forum and check back often as there is going to be updated builds weekly.

    DUAL WIELD DPS - Definitely the easiest build to manage, very simple button spamming to get the most DPS out of it. This build also offers a couple nice utilities as well. Way of the Mountain, which negates most knockback effects, can help on a lot of fights when you're still new (though 99% of the time you'll opt for way of the wind and hopefully with a few runs under your belt be good enough to not have to rely on it at all). The main spam macro also doubles as fairly acceptable range dps, something like 2/3rds your regular melee dps but it can be very helpful in some fights involving a lot of movement when you're just learning and may struggle to stay within melee range.
    2-Hand DPS - This build requires a bit more micro-managing than the previous one, little more attention needs to be paid to attack points and what's on cool down to get the most out of it, but if you've got a better 2hander this is the way to go. This build also pumps out huge AE dps so great for breezing through trash and the boss fights with adds.
    2-Hand DPS - This is a non-pet 2hand build. This build also comes in very short on AE dps but will be in the same single target range as the above. It has some of the same bit of complexity to it's macros but it does offer way of the mountain again for the few fights the can come in real handy for.
    Dual Wield DPS - This is one of the newest builds and definitely putting out serious numbers, though it seems to be more dependent on gear so you may find the above builds better until you fill out with some better gear.

    ROGUES
    You will find yourself struggling a bit behind warriors to begin with. While you still can hit high numbers as a fresh 50 there is a bit more reliance on your gear than warriors and if you were to compare things like macros and rotations you'd find warriors do have it much easier. You'll take a bit more practice getting used to your rotations.

    As for specs?
    CLICK HERE FOR ALL YOUR NEEDS - Huge props to Flaymar for it. Everything nicely packed already into one post. Downfall though, there are plenty of changes and a few newer builds around. You'll find though that rogues are a bit more secretive about their builds so the information on them are not as readily available so no quick easy references here for me to post to =/ (def let me know if you have one though!!!) For simplicities sake though the above one will get you where you need to be to be a productive member in your party.


    MAGES
    I've found mages to be probably the most complex in the DPS department. More reliance on gear than rogues and warriors along with probably the most micro management required macro rotations to learn. Now I've also got the least experiance with mage DPS so any help here would be greatly appreciated. I've also noticed that mages struggle the most with single target DPS while gearing up but they can spike some real real high AE damage.

    For all your spec needs, again, very nicely handled here by Bluedot all in one spot
    CLICK ME
    REST INC SHORTLY...
    Last edited by xanon; 08-31-2011 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    DPS continued...
    CLERICS
    Similar to mages, you'll struggle a bit behind warriors and rogues until you've put more time into gear. There really is not a ton in the way of viable DPS specs, 51druid is and has been pretty much top of the charts. But they have a good bunch of support roles that can still do acceptable single target damage with a bit of gear and really huge AE damage. You may run into a few complaints here though if you're just running the supporticar roles when Q'd as DPS. For the most part most people shouldn't mind as long as you're doing them right with the right DPS. I've seen some cleric tanks get a little annoyed though, they rely on their justicar group heals for some good AE threat and if you're keeping people topped off it can interfer with their heals and cut down their AE aggro.
    A big plus though to the cleric DPS specs is super easy macros, typically just one key is all you'll need.

    Druid DPS - Super easy build with really just one macro. Scroll down a bit and you'll see an AE macro as well though it typically does come in a little short on the AE damage. 2 downfalls though, it's melee and it's pet dependent.
    Shamicar or "duracell" - This is a support build but still a workable DPS build for experts. It is the weakest of the builds on single target DPS but it's AE damage can more than make up for it. Do keep one of the other builds in your roles though for fights that do need you to maximize your single target DPS if you do plan on Q'n as DPS, with lacking gear this build can have trouble hitting even 500 single target dps so can fall considerably short of where you should be at. The plus is you will simply never run out of mana with this build and in AE situations this build can solo heal a tank with ease.
    Inquisicar - Another support build. This one is range and is much better on the single target DPS than the shamicar. It also has the same large AE capabilities. Keeping up AE dps with this one can drain your mana though. But you should be able to hit 6-700 single target with this without much work on your gear. This build does also require a bit more complexity to your button mashing, but nothing too terrible.



    TANKING
    The role that seems to struggle the most behind DPS. This is tough though to critique, tanks are so few and far between that it's hard to start getting made at anyone doing a bad job tanking, at least they want to tank in the first place! The 2 big issues are builds and aggro. Builds mostly refer to warriors and aggro to clerics and rogues. Rogues and Clerics seem to always suffer aggro issues and if you've played them you know why, they simply lack drastically behind warriors on AE threat abilities. Warriors with aggro issues usually revolve around just a bad build. Clerics and Rogues obviously can't really deviate far off their only tank role to run into build issues.

    WARRIORS
    VOID KNIGHT VOID KNIGHT VOID KNIGHT VOID KNIGHT VOID KNIGHT. There really isnt much more that needs to be said. If you are not running a VK build DO NOT ENTER AN EXPERT DUNGEON. I don't know how or why these half-half paladin/reaver builds even still exist, they are massively sub-par and became jokes weeks after the game was released.

    THE BUILDS and HERE With all praises due to Kruunch and Ciderhelm. Again, 2 warriors who are amazingly wonderful at putting together guides. Now there is a lot to take in there, but as a tank you should be doing your research and learning to be that bit of a leader in dungeons. If I had to suggest one to begin with, Take a look at Ciderhelm's stuff and go for one of the more VK/Warlord oriented ones. The warlord buff 'battlefield awareness' that turns all the warlord calls into AE taunts is still just the best AE taunt in game. It will make your life sooo much easier and makes aggro management cake. You should also get 'intercept' in those builds which will help if you find yourself grouped up with a full raid geared person who can give even a seasoned tank aggro issues.

    ROGUES
    Like already mentioned, the biggest issue with rogues really wont be your build so much as your execution of it. The best thing I can recommend is practice. Don't jump into T1s without some solid practice in reg AP/CC. Don't jump into T2s without a ton of T1 experiance. You will be a nightmare to healers if you are undergeared and struggling with aggro. Unlike warriors who can pump up mitigation a ton with their varying build options, your only route to become non-squishy is gear and even then you're still gonna be more squishy than clerics or warriors. I dont want to turn this into a bash fest but rogue tanking really is broken due to it's lack of scaling with gear, a full raid geared tank rogue will always take significantly more physical damage than a fully raid geared warrior or cleric tank.

    So you really must be a rogue tank? Click here. Flaymar again with a great write-up (you'll likely notice the same thread as the DPS, just a wonderful collection all in one spot.)

    CLERICS
    Similar to rogues, you're gonna need significant practice. AE aggro isnt a given like warriors. The best thing you can do for yourself is practice a lot in reg AP/CC and then t1s. There is a bit of a slight learning curve to AE pulls, you'll find single target aggro very simple, but you do lack a bit on AE threat. I find clerics struggle with pulling and building that innitial aggro, when someone else dies it's usually from pulling a mob right off the cleric from the start. So work on your AE damage abilities and using things like your Doctrine of Loyalty to build a lot of innitial aggro.

    The Builds. A lot to take in, yes, but you're the tank and should be the leader and it should be expected that you're the kind of person to really research your role and be the guide. I'd recommend for starters going to that second post and taking a look at the 44justicar/22shaman build. This will give Strike of the Maelstrom which is a fairly fast refreshing (10 second) 360 cleave which gives the cleric some really great and needed AE threat ability. In my experiance tanking as a cleric using a range like Sovereignty then Maelstrom when the mobs are in range is enough to get all the initial aggro needed.


    coming next...healing!

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Annabella's Avatar
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    Very nice! I'm waiting for the healing thread...


    A little kindness goes a long way.




  4. #4
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    Good read
    thanks
    Last edited by Stormon; 09-12-2011 at 08:48 AM.
    When people say you suck. Just remember, they just have a better macro than you do, NOT that they play better. Ask them to share.

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    Rift Master Pope Zaphod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanon View Post
    The soul system in rift was a cool selling point, "OH MAN SO MANY COMBINATIONS!!" but within a few weeks that was completely nullified. Each of the 4 classes has a limited number of builds that actually work.
    I was hoping that RIFT would avoid the cookie-cutter classes for endgame, but it looks like they're here as well.

    I am mixed on this because on the one hand it takes out the fun and creativity of crafting your own builds and customizing your own gameplay. On the other hand, if you want to beat endgame content then you have to maximize your capabilities and the people who create these builds tend to have done their homework.

    I would suggest that people don't just use a pre-defined build and macros without understanding how and why they work. I know I couldn't start playing the Druid DPS build in T1/T2 dungeons (let alone raids) without spending about a day using him on trash mobs in IPP or Stillmore to really get the feel of the build.

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    Plane Walker Typrop's Avatar
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    It should be noted for Rogue tanks that it is good rpactice to be very mindful(more so than warriors) of your healers capabilities,mana pool, and readiness. Since most of our mitigation has to be activated rather than how warriors and clerics have their mitigation passive you start your fights with very little mitigation. Ensuring your healer is aware of this and is ready prior to pulls I've found is vital. Once you get through the initial pull things settle down and it's just a matter of handling aggro. Out of the three I find Rogue tanking the most difficult, but most fun as well.

    This is a great post though and I can't dispute any of it, I will be directing my recruits and friends who just started the game to this thread as I think it gives a great idea of what to expect in experts for various roles. If you're interested Xanon would you like to make this in to a downloadable PDF guide?
    Last edited by Typrop; 09-12-2011 at 10:15 AM.

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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pope Zaphod View Post
    I was hoping that RIFT would avoid the cookie-cutter classes for endgame, but it looks like they're here as well.

    I am mixed on this because on the one hand it takes out the fun and creativity of crafting your own builds and customizing your own gameplay. On the other hand, if you want to beat endgame content then you have to maximize your capabilities and the people who create these builds tend to have done their homework.
    For any given class and role, there will always be one particular build which is objectively the best. But it's complete crap to say that you have to use that spec and nothing else. I refuse to play Sabdancer on my rogue because it's horrible and clunky, and yet I'm one of our top DPS using a wacky tri-spec build that I bodged together myself by having a look at the souls and figuring out what would work well with what.

    And unless you're in a bleeding edge progression guild, there's almost no need to tediously min-max your character. Once you have enough DPS to pass enrage timers (which isn't hard) and can handle mechanics while pulling off your rotation, you have loads of freedom to experiment with your character. Or, y'know, you can just be bad and copy someone else's build without understanding anything about how your class's underlying mechanics work and what makes certain talents better than others.
    Last edited by JimboTCB; 09-12-2011 at 10:14 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Ruprect1's Avatar
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    I hope to God a lot of people read this, it should get a sticky! The unfortunate thing is that most people that need to read this will never see it because they are bad because they do not read the forums or try to find ways to get better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Englshredwolf View Post
    thanks point dexter, ill wait for some more comments from other, less rude people.

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    Ascendant TheDrizzle404's Avatar
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    i stopped reading around the point where you said only one plausible warrior tanking spec exists and parser is a must.

    addons are never a must, and the game wasnt designed around such addons. thus, its perfectly possible to do everything in the game with no addons to support you. you remind me of the "if you want to raid, you have to have DBM" crowd from WoW.

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    Plane Walker Typrop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruprect1 View Post
    I hope to God a lot of people read this, it should get a sticky! The unfortunate thing is that most people that need to read this will never see it because they are bad because they do not read the forums or try to find ways to get better.
    I think an overall issue though is that a great majority of people I've met in game and out are afraid to ask questions when they don't know something. That mixed with a thin skin for constructive(not OMG YOU SUCK)criticism make for a really bad combination.


    In addition to my comment on creating a downloadable PDF(I can't edit after 5 minutes). Perhaps after a few edits and contribution to this write up from the community it'd be great to share and perhaps work with Trion to place it on their main page as a "getting started" guide.
    Last edited by Typrop; 09-12-2011 at 10:35 AM.

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  11. #11
    Sword of Telara
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    I like the idea and applaud the guide.

    I think that an even more basic and shorter guide might be more effective.
    Some of the people I meet who are having problems dont understand very basic principles...like that they have to perform a role in a dungeon, they are used to soloing pve content and come into dungeons as a jack of all trades master of none. people dpsing with sword and board. etc

    i understand your guide is meant to be comprehensive....but i fear talk of parsers and long paragraphs about builds may scare off those that need the help the most ...and by helping them we help ourseves because as you said...the frustration level is rising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDrizzle404 View Post
    i stopped reading around the point where you said only one plausible warrior tanking spec exists and parser is a must.

    addons are never a must, and the game wasnt designed around such addons. thus, its perfectly possible to do everything in the game with no addons to support you. you remind me of the "if you want to raid, you have to have DBM" crowd from WoW.
    I am an addon hater also. However to say such things also apparently makes you a "Troll" because you have an opinion that may differ from another.

    I can see the "auto mark healer addon" coming to PVP. shame really. To have to have a third party application tell you how to play your toon. Hell, macro automation is enough you'd think.

    Oh well. When addons come, me and several like me are gone. I am not going through another "gear score" "recount is king" "your DPS is 100 lower than mine so you suck" crap again.
    When people say you suck. Just remember, they just have a better macro than you do, NOT that they play better. Ask them to share.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    If the links provided in the "tanking section" were actually read before being posted I don't think anyone could claim there's only one tanking build, let alone a presumed 51vk build that magically includes intercept. The rest is just conjecture and arbitrary tripe.

    I agree that this "guide to guides" could be more concise. It should just consist of useful links minus all the other text.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker Monzta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanon View Post
    Do you still think paladin/reaver tank builds are good?

    Parsing
    If you are at the learning stages parsing is a must. Anyone who says otherwise is a very unfortunately misinformed fool. As DPS you need to check that you're working properly, as a tank you need to be informed of who may cause aggro issues for the purpose something like intercept and just general knowledge, as a healer you need to ensure you're hps is up to par and similarly what dps may cause an issue with aggro. Parsing gives you such a leg-up on your skills and gives you just great over-all knowledge of what the group is up to.
    If you are reading this thread, please ignore these statements. Rather than tell you all to mention in a dungeon that it is your first time running said dungeon, I think that the OP should mention that this is his first time posting a guide and he needs some help.

  15. #15
    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanon View Post

    Who this is For

    Do you think sent/puri is the ultimate cleric healing spec?


    Did I miss something or is there not a section about healing?
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

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