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Thread: Feedback: Dungeon Requirements & Penalties

  1. #1
    Telaran Candarie's Avatar
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    Default Feedback: Dungeon Requirements & Penalties

    I was doing a little QQ on my twitter today, and Zann asked me to make it a forum feedback here so it would be easier to circulate.

    There's a bit more room of course to extrapolate, so here goes.

    As it stands right now, the requirements for the dungeon finder are virtually nonexistent. I'm pretty sure there's no requirements at all for Tier 1, and I don't know about the rest of you, but I met the Tier 2 requirements the moment I dinged 50.

    So when you do a random dungeon, chances are pretty good that the players you get will be woefully undergeared, and have done little or nothing to prepare themselves for the encounters.

    If an unprepared player joins a random dungeon, they are at worst on equal footing with a full group of equally unprepared players. Any time they draw a prepared player as a random, their play experience gets that much better. As a bonus, each prepared player will desire a smaller portion of the available rewards - as low as 0% if they draw a player that only needs plaques. Not so for the prepared, where whatever chance they have of drawing a group full of prepared players is certainly less than 100%. For them, each time they draw an unprepared player their play experience gets worse, and their chances at desired rewards goes down.

    The weight is then placed on the prepared player to make up for any shortcomings in gear or skill. Maybe you can teach the player the dance steps, but if you can't, it's not likely to be the prepared player's fault for standing in fire, damaging vs reflect shields, lack of curing, or any of the number of ways the unprepared can fail the encounter for you.

    Eventually the prepared player may decide they've had enough. Perhaps they are out of play time, or simply at their wits end. So they leave the dungeon, and are penalized with at minimum, a 1 day lockout on the dungeon they wanted to play. If they leave too early, they'll also receive a deserter lockout and not be allowed to play at all for a period of time. This is on top of any costs already incurred - time, platinum, planarite (from the Rescue Medic), etc.

    Please consider the effect that these penalties have on the players that would be good for the game if they were in the dungeon finder. The ones who have the knowledge to teach the unprepared the encounters, the ones who have put in the subscription time & effort to build their characters well and be a quality member of the team. These are the players that are being pushed out by bad play experience, and locked out further by the game itself.

    By driving the prepared players away, and encouraging the unprepared to participate, the result is a bad experience for everyone.

    ~~ @CandarieHeals ~ Healing Raids for over 10 Years ~ http://about.me/Candarie ~~

  2. #2
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    +1, but also -1

    I recently got my 4th character to 50. The minute it hit 50 I had a full set of crafted gear ready to go (thanks rich alts!) and could easily step into any T2 and do it.

    But.

    This is my 4th character, I know all the fights, I know where to stand, I know what abilities to interupt, I know when to run away from what. I am going to take less damage in dungeons, Im going to have less chance of being killed. As such I don't need as much gear to overcome the extra damage I would take if I didn't know that (for example) you shouldn't melee the Gatekeeper Kaleida mob in the fire phase, or Scarn's fireballs, or that there's a hidey-hole where I don't have to dodge lasers in the Caelex fight.

    This is my 4th character, I have alot of platinum i can throw at buying crafted good, and I can make alot of it myself. I know when my first character hit level 50 I had about 4 plat, because I'd been spending it on crafting.

    I guess what I'm saying is that different people play at different levels, based on their game knowledge, hnd-eye coordination, their builds and a whole range of other factors. You cannot make rules that will work for everyone.

    I can run zones in quested gear that people with bad spec or lack of knowledge would get murdered doing with gear twice as good as mine.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    I totally agree with the OP. Bad players driving good players away, this ruins the game and the game population.

    Most of the time, it is not about undergeared or experience, it is about effort.
    There is nothing you can do if these players do not know the least common sense and how to play their class.
    You can teach them the dungeon mechanics, undergeared can be balanced if there happens to be some overgeared in the group. But there is no way you want to teach some dumb *** how to play their class in the middle of an instance run.

    It is like everyone reaching their age of 17 or so be able to enter any university they like, without going thru any sort of examination.

    I heard they are preparing for some sort of solo instances. I hope these serve as the examination, such as you would have to cleared some solo instances in order to join the LFD for T1/T2 respectively. If they make it well-balanced, this can even be applied to 10-man LFD.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    I think same sort of internal gear score may be in order to stop players joining who are under geared (a public score would be just an excuse to denigrate people on the forums and in game) That does not test their skill and knowledge at all though. Guilds are there for players who do not want this. While someone is happy to pug they really have to put up with it.

    I personally like attunements which have gone out of favour in games,. This usually ensured at least a basic level of competence and ability to act in a team.
    Last edited by Zartanic; 08-30-2011 at 07:07 PM.

  5. #5
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    Tried this before. No one likes it.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...s-experts.html
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Babylon's Avatar
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    Agreed, I tank 1-2 T2's a day on my warrior and I've seen some shocking gear for T2's, the worst I've seen was a mage who had 11 green items, no trinket a total of 55 focus and a sigil with 2x lvl12 lesser essences. He was a necrolock and his dps was around 180-240 for most bosses in CC.

    I understand that the content has been dumbed down and there are still new players subbing to rift and making it to 50 I get alot of them. It would be nice if players had atleast 5x lvl 50 blues and actually meet the requirements for T2's such as the focus/hit required. I've had rouges that didn't meet the dex requirements so they would use pots scrolls and buffs from friends then enter and expect to be carried in T2's.

    I dont' post very often but this is something I feel strongly about, I don't mind helping those that are happy to help themselves but so many just expect to be carried.

    I love tanking, I love helping people and doing pug instances and the challenges that come with it but the road blocks happen on dps checks when 1-3 players don't really have the gear for that content.

    -Babs@dayblind
    Last edited by Babylon; 08-30-2011 at 08:58 PM.

  7. #7
    Telaran Candarie's Avatar
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    Paikis,

    I appreciate where you're coming from, and I read both of your replies. I'm not really keen on forums in general, so I may not come in and out and reply to everyone.

    I agree with what you say very much. I tried very hard to avoid suggesting that the solution involved any additional forced preparation. There are many cases, as you've well noted, where this wouldn't help.

    My feedback here centers on dealing with the experiences of the _prepared player_, not the unprepared one. As it stands, this player bears too much of the penalties. If we can make the experience better for these players, hopefully there will be more of them. If they can then teach and help gear the unprepared, maybe they'll become prepared players too.

    ~~ @CandarieHeals ~ Healing Raids for over 10 Years ~ http://about.me/Candarie ~~

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    I woudl like to point out that there ARE requirements to enter a T1 or T2 dungeon. If you were able to enter them on the first try, it was likely because you had some fairly good recipes crafted for you -- as well as knowinging fulfilling the requirements in the first place. If I recall properly, they are as follows:

    T1:
    Tanks: 40 Toughness
    DPS: 50 hit/focus
    A minimum amount of a main stat is also required, I can't recall what.

    T2:
    Tanks: 90 Toughness
    DPS: 120+ hit/focus
    I would assume a minimum of a primary stat is also required here.

    One point you should remember is that once you obtain the gear/stats to entire a given tier, you keep it -- FOREVER, regardless of the gear you are currently wearing. So if you encountered somebody who was wearing all greens, either they wore crafted gear to fulfill the requirements, or else they already had the gear and swapped to greens to troll you.

    If it's the first, I'd say your expectations are too high. If it's the second, you got trolled. Either way, working as intended.

  9. #9
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    As the prepared player, your job is to teach players who have not had enough time to fully develop their skills. You may not want to, but that is the price you pay for having decided to use the LFG system. Simply put, if you want to maximize your chance at having a good run, make your own group; the same way you did before the LFG came out.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker Vianni's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Agreed

    I have to say I agree with the OP here. I run with a mostly premade group, but we do have to often pug the last couple slots, and it is always hit or miss, but usually a miss. I have no problem with helping and training an inexperienced person, explaining boss encounters, etc.

    However, I can only explain what backloading DPS is so many times to a player before I just get frustrated and angry. It is not a hard concept to not use your hardest hitting abilities first to allow the tank a few seconds to gain some threat. Some players will get insulted that you dared ask. However, said player dies within seconds on EVERY boss, and some trash, because they insist on using their 51 point nuke as their very first attack, and then lays there dead for the rest of the fight. The rest of the group has to finish the fights out alone, but the dead player STILL gets equal chance at all of the loot in the dungeon despite the fact that they did so little.

    Staying out of the fire seems to be an oddly difficult thing for some players to do. Probably top of my list though of things I hate pugs for is lack of a rez. You can now have 5 roles in the game. There is NO excuse for not having a rez in one of them. You don't even have to have the keys placed, just put the points in and stick the Rez on your bar.

    Now I know it just isn't fair that you have to actually PAY ATTENTION to the battle, not just face roll your one button macro. Why should you move out of the fire? If the healer can't keep up, it means they suck. Watch positioning for proximity to an oncoming pat? Pffft, who cares. If the tank can't deal with that many adds, they must suck. Pick up those extra ads before they kill the healer? Why bother? If the dps can't kill them fast enough, they must suck. Read the chat box? WHAT? Why should you care what the other players have to say? They're just trying to be bossy and tell you how to play. Yes, I AM a prepared player, and I reserve the right to expect people to be able to actually play the game and their roll so they do not make my play experience worse.


    Also, they should add the cost of a soul heal into the dungeon finder so it will auto charge and heal you before you can enter the dungeon.

  11. #11
    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    You're making the dangerous assumption that bad players actually have any interest whatsoever in improving themselves, and not just in whining that content is too hard and raiders have better gear than they do.

    Anyone with half a brain and any motivation whatsoever who sucks in a T2 will go away and do something about it without needing to be prompted. The rest of the people who are bad and don't care, you can spoonfeed them information and dangle carrots in front of them as much as you like, it won't make a damn bit of difference.

  12. #12
    Champion of Telara Puandro's Avatar
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    If players don't answer questions or do crap DPS I will kick them. No im not saying amazing DPS. Just good enough for their gear. If you die to stupid things over and over you get a kick. Some people just don't care wasting my time so why should I care about theirs. Yesterday I had a cleric join DSM PuG and he was the tank. He had all T1 purples but this guy was a good played. First he stated he never done this before as we joined so we explained mechanics and tricky pulls. After 90 mind we finished DSM. Took a bit longer than usual but no wipes. People like these I like and im willing to teach.

  13. #13
    Telaran Halbarad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vianni View Post
    Also, they should add the cost of a soul heal into the dungeon finder so it will auto charge and heal you before you can enter the dungeon.
    Yes please.

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    I tank and heal T2 and have, like most of you, run into very bad players and very good players. Usually it takes 2 or more bad players to make a PUG group unplayable. With my gear and just 2 other decent/good players, I can carry through almost any boss that doesn't have a timer mechanism (like Jultharion). I've been in groups where 1-2 players get accidentally locked out of half of the bosses, stand in fire and die every time possible, fall off cliffs while fighting a boss. You name it, I've seen it.

    I'll let everyone in on a HUGE secret that will save you massive headache and frustration. Ready for it?

    Bad players/bad groups WILL NOT get better the more you try an encounter. DPS will not get higher if you yell at them to raise their DPS. Idiots will not LOS a mechanic or stop standing in fire the more you yell at them. Bad is bad and will not get good within a couple of minutes.

    The TLR solution? If you wipe more than 2 times on a T1 or T2 boss, you cut your losses. Here's how. Say in party chat, "I'm out" or "I'm done, bye" then /logout for 5 minutes. They will kick you and you will not be locked out due to timer.

    Very simple solution to everyone's griping. To me, if you are stupid enough to stay in the horrible group, you are no worse than the people you are complaining about.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker Atelier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vianni View Post
    Also, they should add the cost of a soul heal into the dungeon finder so it will auto charge and heal you before you can enter the dungeon.
    While I like this, alot, then peoples answers will be I am too broke to pay that. Or, They wll just complain that Trion is forcing them to spend thier hard earned gold on something they don't need.

    As for the orginal post.
    I consider my self nicely geared (mix of t2, crafted, raid rift and t1 raid gear) and having run these dungeons over and over and over again I feel confident I know them. That being said, I still do LFG Pug it up when its going slow because it beats sitting in Sanctum. However beaing that I am a prepared player there is also something that I noticed was not said (or as I am a ditz sometimes did not see it) and that is:

    It is because I am a little overgeared for the content those unprepared players now think they can get away with even more stupidity while playing because, "Oh, they have the gear so I can do even less now or watch what I am doing and/or where I am standing even less".

    I have no issue helping those that wish to seek it. Hell, gives me more people to play with if they want help. My problem comes when undergeared, or very bad players, decide that I will just carry them through and they are basically just a body in the group allowed to do what ever they wish.

    I continue to hope for more requirements for LFG, particularly the T2 part. Not massive requirements, but at least a few. Completing at least 2 T1 dungeons and having at least 2 or 3 peices of T1 dungeon drop items, new 50 crafted (not the 1.4 patch recipes the older ones that are closer to t1 stats) or t1 plaque gear. At least having that minor amount of extra requirements would show that some effort was given.
    Disclaimer: The above post does not necessarily reflect the views of Atelier, subsidiaries, parent companies or stockholders. In fact, most of them do not think much of Atelier.

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