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Thread: Hit/Focus/Toughness Rating

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    Telaran Asmiroth's Avatar
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    Default Hit/Focus/Toughness Rating

    I have a question about hit requirements and progression.

    From the baseline, you need 70 for a T1, 120 for a T2 dungeon. T1 raid needs 220 and T2 raids appear to need 320.

    From a gear perspective, there are quite a few options to get to the 120 in order to do a T2. Running a T2 frequently is feasible and you should hit if not come close to the focus requirement for a raid. If you don't come close, run more T2s until you can, it's nearly unlimited chances to raise the stat. I would say that the bar of entry for raiding is high enough that a fresh 50 can't do it but a 50 with a few weeks of dungeon runs is.

    Once you get into raids it gets different. The marks are a great way forward. If you're able to clear both T1 raids, you get over 40 marks per week, so about a new low-end piece every 2 weeks. That's a lot better than before, if you're able to raid.

    The question is on the next tier with a 100 point increase in focus (50 toughness - a more important stat). For guilds that have been running it for a while, HK is easy to enter. For guilds that are progressing or have 1-2 new members joining, HK is simply not going to be seen for a while. If you're in a guild and miss a raid night, that's it for the week unless you have a set of alts that can run it again.

    I ask because the progression curve becomes non-linear once you put a barrier on entry that can't be done with a smaller group. Should a T2 be harder and require more hit points, mana and dps? Absolutely. Should entry into a T2 require you to grind a T1 raid for weeks in order to stand a chance? Eh... If your guild is running a T2 raid, will they run the T1s to gear other players for weeks?

    Are there plans to ease the transition into T2 raids with perhaps a different source of hit/focus/toughness at the same difficulty level as T1 raids? Maybe a new set of runes that can be purchased and add a big chunk to gear. You will still miss the increase in stats but you won't have to play T1 raids for 2 months before you have the baseline to a T2 raid. Perhaps increase the Marks of Ascension drop rate for lower raids so that the threshold/time ratio is dropped? I'm not advocating WoW's model where older raid content is practically useless 1 patch in. I am more suggesting that the amount of runs required for older content be reduced so that a new player joining the game doesn't have to farm low end content for months in order to play with their friends. This is less of a problem with only 2 levels of raids but adding a new one will just increase the problem.

    I am curious to the design decisions.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    I think the whole point of the increased requirements for HK is precisely that... Trion wants people to progress through existing content rather than skipping it, and I think that's a good thing. Raid content being made irrelevant after two months is poor design.

    Then again, you can get 320 hit without any raid gear, or at least come real close. +13 hit enchants to weapons and +18 to helm/legs plus t2 expert weapons and armor gets you right about there.

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  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara Radak's Avatar
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    It is a pretty big jump from the hit/focus cap from T1 raids to T2 raids.
    But remember there are already a lot of hit/focus rune available.

    1H/Offhand/Ranged slot: +13hit/focus
    2H: +24hit/focus
    Helmet/legs: +18hit/focus

    If you are undergeared a bit because you miss a few slots those runes alone will give you up to 74-75hit or focus in exchange for a few other stats.

    Toughness is a bit harder as there is only +20 toughness on chest allowing for 1 piece of gear to not be T1 raid in on of the 4 slots that contain toughness (shoulder/chest/legs/boots).

    What I surprises me most is that I have near BiS T1 raid gear now as a cleric tank however the gear doesn't provide enough focus to get me to the cap with only 285focus available on our gear (my only non BiS piece is the relic tank wand which would put me at 297 which is still 23 under the cap).
    Mean while our dps are all (well most) sitting at the 300+ hit/focus while still missing multiple pieces of raid gear.

    I don't know how this is for warrior/rogue tanks but it means it's not possible to even reach the cap with raid gear and I would suggest a few stat changes are in order.
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  4. #4
    Shield of Telara
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    Clerics in general have it a little hard on focus. The reason being is we don't have +focus talents we can take to make up for a lack of it on gear. (I believe mages have much the same issue). I think the highest focus (not BiS except for focus) dps gear for clerics was ~307 without runes. A better stat set is something like 260-280 focus before runes.

    Obviously it hurts tanks a little more to use runes for focus than it does for dps to use runes for focus. So I feel your pain.

    For toughness: isn't there a +10 toughness unique equip lesser essence? That and the +20 rune would allow you to use 2 T2 (or raid rift) tank pieces if you can fill 2 of your toughness slots w/ T1 raid gear. Sure it's a loss of a nice chunk of stats, but it's doable if needed.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    The planar lens is 20 toughness, fyi.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radak View Post
    It is a pretty big jump from the hit/focus cap from T1 raids to T2 raids.
    But remember there are already a lot of hit/focus rune available.

    1H/Offhand/Ranged slot: +13hit/focus
    2H: +24hit/focus
    Helmet/legs: +18hit/focus

    If you are undergeared a bit because you miss a few slots those runes alone will give you up to 74-75hit or focus in exchange for a few other stats.

    Toughness is a bit harder as there is only +20 toughness on chest allowing for 1 piece of gear to not be T1 raid in on of the 4 slots that contain toughness (shoulder/chest/legs/boots).

    What I surprises me most is that I have near BiS T1 raid gear now as a cleric tank however the gear doesn't provide enough focus to get me to the cap with only 285focus available on our gear (my only non BiS piece is the relic tank wand which would put me at 297 which is still 23 under the cap).
    Mean while our dps are all (well most) sitting at the 300+ hit/focus while still missing multiple pieces of raid gear.

    I don't know how this is for warrior/rogue tanks but it means it's not possible to even reach the cap with raid gear and I would suggest a few stat changes are in order.
    Bout the same for rogues. With the relic mace and relic gun we hit 300 even, if you don't have the T3 token helm/gloves or anything else you're quite short and will have to rune for it as well.

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    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post
    I have a question about hit requirements and progression.

    From the baseline, you need 70 for a T1, 120 for a T2 dungeon. T1 raid needs 220 and T2 raids appear to need 320.

    From a gear perspective, there are quite a few options to get to the 120 in order to do a T2. Running a T2 frequently is feasible and you should hit if not come close to the focus requirement for a raid. If you don't come close, run more T2s until you can, it's nearly unlimited chances to raise the stat. I would say that the bar of entry for raiding is high enough that a fresh 50 can't do it but a 50 with a few weeks of dungeon runs is.

    Once you get into raids it gets different. The marks are a great way forward. If you're able to clear both T1 raids, you get over 40 marks per week, so about a new low-end piece every 2 weeks. That's a lot better than before, if you're able to raid.

    The question is on the next tier with a 100 point increase in focus (50 toughness - a more important stat). For guilds that have been running it for a while, HK is easy to enter. For guilds that are progressing or have 1-2 new members joining, HK is simply not going to be seen for a while. If you're in a guild and miss a raid night, that's it for the week unless you have a set of alts that can run it again.

    I ask because the progression curve becomes non-linear once you put a barrier on entry that can't be done with a smaller group. Should a T2 be harder and require more hit points, mana and dps? Absolutely. Should entry into a T2 require you to grind a T1 raid for weeks in order to stand a chance? Eh... If your guild is running a T2 raid, will they run the T1s to gear other players for weeks?

    Are there plans to ease the transition into T2 raids with perhaps a different source of hit/focus/toughness at the same difficulty level as T1 raids? Maybe a new set of runes that can be purchased and add a big chunk to gear. You will still miss the increase in stats but you won't have to play T1 raids for 2 months before you have the baseline to a T2 raid. Perhaps increase the Marks of Ascension drop rate for lower raids so that the threshold/time ratio is dropped? I'm not advocating WoW's model where older raid content is practically useless 1 patch in. I am more suggesting that the amount of runs required for older content be reduced so that a new player joining the game doesn't have to farm low end content for months in order to play with their friends. This is less of a problem with only 2 levels of raids but adding a new one will just increase the problem.

    I am curious to the design decisions.
    Generally speaking, the first few bosses of each dungeon do not require the standard you are seeing.

    No boss generally speaking does require you to reach the cap on anything, however it does help, it can still be done without it.

    If you are Killing GSB, there is no doubt that you can beat the first 2, maybe 3 bosses of HK.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    If you are Killing GSB, there is no doubt that you can beat the first 2, maybe 3 bosses of HK.
    Seeing as how you haven't done it, I wouldn't really make claims like this.

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  9. #9
    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    Seeing as how you haven't done it, I wouldn't really make claims like this.
    We started clearing GSB with people running 100 hit/focus in a mixture of T1/T2 expert gear. We started clearing RoS with people running 150 hit/focus with a mixture of T2 expert gear/T1 raid gear. The only stat we made sure was capped was Toughness for the tanks.

    Did we have issues, sure, progression always has issues. Did we succed? Sure did. So, it's safe to assume that HK will not require capped out stats unless you want to burn it down the day its released and even then, it still wouldn't even require it.

    It is a guide to aim for, not required to complete the content. Thats why they are classed as *suggested* values, not required.
    Last edited by Taemek; 06-30-2011 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    We started clearing GSB with people running 100 hit/focus in a mixture of T1/T2 expert gear. We started clearing RoS with people running 150 hit/focus with a mixture of T2 expert gear/T1 raid gear. The only stat we made sure was capped was Toughness for the tanks.

    Did we have issues, sure, progression always has issues. Did we succed? Sure did. So, it's safe to assume that HK will not require capped out stats unless you want to burn it down the day its released and even then, it still wouldn't even require it.

    It is a guide to aim for, not required to complete the content. Thats why they are classed as *suggested* values, not required.
    Unfortunately the first boss in HK is a dps and tank check to see if you are ready for it.
    He has a stacking debuff on the tank that reduces armor and Toughness. (forces tank swapping)

    By having dps that isn't focus/hit capped you have the dps to kill him. (he increase his damage the longer the fight lasts eventually resulting in him one-shoting people)

    If you manage to kill you you have a choose of 3 different wings where the fights are more tactic based and less of a tank/dps check. (still require high dps of course but you should have it in you can pass the first boss).
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radak View Post
    If you manage to kill you you have a choose of 3 different wings where the fights are more tactic based and less of a tank/dps check.
    Where did you get this info? Trying to dig up more about Hammerknell, thanks.
    what is this I don't even

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pines View Post
    Where did you get this info? Trying to dig up more about Hammerknell, thanks.
    I think it was in this podcast: http://www.riftjunkies.com/2011/06/2...m-hammerknell/
    (not really sure as I don't plan to relisten a 1hour podcast .
    As for the first boss I found that somewhere in the PTS forums near the start of the patch 1.3 test from some test guild. But I think the post is gone since I can't find it anymore.
    Last edited by Radak; 07-01-2011 at 09:31 AM.
    Cleric tanking: Justicar guide | Justicar spreadsheet and item list
    Defence is as much a part of war as offense, the shield as important a tool as the sword.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Pines's Avatar
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    Hmm. Wonder if they're just doing that for testing purposes or if that's how it's going to be released. Interested to find out either way.
    what is this I don't even

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