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Thread: SOLVED: New Versions of Dungeons are Too Easy

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default SOLVED: New Versions of Dungeons are Too Easy

    Problem: Since the patch, most people are finding the dungeons are too easy. They are easily able to complete them while "standing in the fire" and not utilizing any support. Not only this, but the current reward system has them grinding these dungeons endlessly as they need hundreds of plaques and completing even the hardest/longest one awards only 18 total (~14 runs for some T2 items).

    Analysis: The current versions of dungeons are equal to the reward. Also, there are some people who prefer this version as they are easier and faster to complete. Also, for a complete PUG it is good to have an easy dungeon where you don't have to rely too heavily on your teammates. If you were to remove this version of the dungeons, there would be a large portion of the community that would not have much end game content they wished to do, as they would not have the desire to spend hours in a dungeon wiping over and over.

    However, many people want a challenge. They want to spend hours upon hours fighting the same boss to perfect the mechanics. Also, there needs to be a place where guild groups can go to learn to work together and rely on their teammates to complete content.

    People have suggested Normal-mode and Expert-mode shards, but that is a bad idea. It carves up the player base, and people who initially role on Normal-mode may get bored with the content, or just want to try something more challenging, and will be blocked from that content unless they grind though level/gear again. A more elegant solution is needed.

    Solution: Keep the dungeons as they currently are, but change the name to "Normal." It is clear in T1 dungeons that it does not take "experts" to clear them, since everyone on the server can clear them with newly level 50 gear.

    Now, create a new Tier above the existing one called "Expert" that is truely challenging. Go beyond the old versions of experts to something with nearly zero room for error. These should award 30-40 plaques for completion, taking roughly 6 runs to get the most expensive piece of plaque gear. However, the final boss should drop equipment that is better than bought gear. Also, I would recommend removing the T1/T2 ranking of these dungeons and have them all be equal difficulty. This way when grinding gear players will have more options than running the same 5 dungeons.

    Alright, so what about the raid content? The current version of the raids are nice, but they are probably a bit hard for some of the guilds. Reduce the overall difficulty of the various raid bosses, paying special attention to bosses with severe dps checks. The drops from raids should be in line with gear dropped from the expert 5-mans. The final boss should still drop a relic weapon that is above anything from the 5-mans.

    Next, implement a new tier of raid content far above the current version. Right now, my guild can clear all the 20-man content in 5 hours, and I am sure other guilds can clear it closer to 3 if not less. Make it so that the current achievements (i.e. don't get hit by a bomb, don't let the oracle get stacks) are almost, if not definitely, requirements to beat the bosses. This each boss in this tier should award 1 piece of relic quality armor, with the final boss awarding a Transcendent (yea, I saw that on the AH quality list) quality weapon.

    This will allow everyone to play complete all the content in the game, and will also provide challenges for people that desire them. The best part is, all the tools to do this are already in place, you just need to use them.

    TL;DR: Don't worry, the devs didn't read it either, and on the off chance they did none of it is ever getting implemented.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Verodio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorde View Post
    Problem: Since the patch, most people are finding the dungeons are too easy. They are easily able to complete them while "standing in the fire" and not utilizing any support. Not only this, but the current reward system has them grinding these dungeons endlessly as they need hundreds of plaques and completing even the hardest/longest one awards only 18 total (~14 runs for some T2 items).

    Analysis: The current versions of dungeons are equal to the reward. Also, there are some people who prefer this version as they are easier and faster to complete. Also, for a complete PUG it is good to have an easy dungeon where you don't have to rely too heavily on your teammates. If you were to remove this version of the dungeons, there would be a large portion of the community that would not have much end game content they wished to do, as they would not have the desire to spend hours in a dungeon wiping over and over.

    However, many people want a challenge. They want to spend hours upon hours fighting the same boss to perfect the mechanics. Also, there needs to be a place where guild groups can go to learn to work together and rely on their teammates to complete content.

    People have suggested Normal-mode and Expert-mode shards, but that is a bad idea. It carves up the player base, and people who initially role on Normal-mode may get bored with the content, or just want to try something more challenging, and will be blocked from that content unless they grind though level/gear again. A more elegant solution is needed.

    Solution: Keep the dungeons as they currently are, but change the name to "Normal." It is clear in T1 dungeons that it does not take "experts" to clear them, since everyone on the server can clear them with newly level 50 gear.

    Now, create a new Tier above the existing one called "Expert" that is truely challenging. Go beyond the old versions of experts to something with nearly zero room for error. These should award 30-40 plaques for completion, taking roughly 6 runs to get the most expensive piece of plaque gear. However, the final boss should drop equipment that is better than bought gear. Also, I would recommend removing the T1/T2 ranking of these dungeons and have them all be equal difficulty. This way when grinding gear players will have more options than running the same 5 dungeons.

    Alright, so what about the raid content? The current version of the raids are nice, but they are probably a bit hard for some of the guilds. Reduce the overall difficulty of the various raid bosses, paying special attention to bosses with severe dps checks. The drops from raids should be in line with gear dropped from the expert 5-mans. The final boss should still drop a relic weapon that is above anything from the 5-mans.

    Next, implement a new tier of raid content far above the current version. Right now, my guild can clear all the 20-man content in 5 hours, and I am sure other guilds can clear it closer to 3 if not less. Make it so that the current achievements (i.e. don't get hit by a bomb, don't let the oracle get stacks) are almost, if not definitely, requirements to beat the bosses. This each boss in this tier should award 1 piece of relic quality armor, with the final boss awarding a Transcendent (yea, I saw that on the AH quality list) quality weapon.

    This will allow everyone to play complete all the content in the game, and will also provide challenges for people that desire them. The best part is, all the tools to do this are already in place, you just need to use them.

    TL;DR: Don't worry, the devs didn't read it either, and on the off chance they did none of it is ever getting implemented.
    Yeah, I've thought they should do something like this as well. The name "expert" is about as accurate right now as "the Great Googly".

    I've said it 1000 times but failing a boss abillity should mean death to the player. Someone shouldn't be allowed to stand in the fire, not LoS the big AOE death blow, etc. without paying the price.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verodio View Post
    I've said it 1000 times but failing a boss abillity should mean death to the player. Someone shouldn't be allowed to stand in the fire, not LoS the big AOE death blow, etc. without paying the price.
    but then 1 person would destroy the "fun" of 4 other people. and we can't have that, can we?

    sooner or later we end up on farmville-level of gameplay. port in, press a button 500 times, collect loot. does not matter if you pressed it in the correct order, as long as you pressed the button often enough.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verodio View Post
    I've said it 1000 times but failing a boss abillity should mean death to the player. Someone shouldn't be allowed to stand in the fire, not LoS the big AOE death blow, etc. without paying the price.
    You have to take into account how many bugs the devs put into the game with each patch. The boss abilities are sometimes random or done at incorrect times due to bugs. Not doing what is needed for a boss mechanic that you cant see because they decided to make the fight in a snow storm to block the player from seeing what the character would see doesnt make something harder, it makes it more random.

    Your "dont stand in the fire" policy would be great, but what about when the boss fears you and the client screws up and has the character not move at all instead of running around so there is no way to get out of the fire? That once again isnt hard, its random.

    A lot of the changes to the mechanics damage are to take into account the game is buggy as hell and randomly getting killed due to bugs is not fun and it is not challenging, it is random.

    Saying something random is hard is like saying playing Russian Roulette takes skill.


    There are other issues with things that were "slightly lowered" being significantly lowered, but since people are pretty much refusing to supply specific feedback it wont get fixed. Coming on and whining "its too easy now" isnt helping anyone.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathmaster35 View Post
    but what about when the boss fears you and the client screws up and has the character not move at all instead of running around so there is no way to get out of the fire? That once again isnt hard, its random.
    But my Tears broke and that's why I cratered for the 14th time tonight guys! I swear I don't know what it is, it must be lag!

  6. #6
    Ascendant Verodio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathmaster35 View Post
    You have to take into account how many bugs the devs put into the game with each patch. The boss abilities are sometimes random or done at incorrect times due to bugs. Not doing what is needed for a boss mechanic that you cant see because they decided to make the fight in a snow storm to block the player from seeing what the character would see doesnt make something harder, it makes it more random.

    Your "dont stand in the fire" policy would be great, but what about when the boss fears you and the client screws up and has the character not move at all instead of running around so there is no way to get out of the fire? That once again isnt hard, its random.

    A lot of the changes to the mechanics damage are to take into account the game is buggy as hell and randomly getting killed due to bugs is not fun and it is not challenging, it is random.

    Saying something random is hard is like saying playing Russian Roulette takes skill.


    There are other issues with things that were "slightly lowered" being significantly lowered, but since people are pretty much refusing to supply specific feedback it wont get fixed. Coming on and whining "its too easy now" isnt helping anyone.
    Then you need to start a fix bugs thread. Plus, a bit of randomness is okay. If you get feared and happen to wander through the flames, that's just one of those things that happens. You do the fight again. *shrug. There are also counters to fear. If someone is important enough, then they should have that available. If a DPS or healer gets feared and dies, that's what BR is for. It's always something, making fights so that things can be done by a monkey with a keyboard though is not the answer.
    Verodio 60 rogue
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  7. #7
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathmaster35 View Post

    Your "dont stand in the fire" policy would be great, but what about when the boss fears you and the client screws up and has the character not move at all instead of running around so there is no way to get out of the fire? That once again isnt hard, its random.
    And what happens when you get feared and don't move? OH SOMEONE DISPELLS YOU AND YOU RUN OUT?!

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    Same with raid rifts. I remember when overlapping 2-3 downpours on water raid rift meant 3 people were gonna die.

    It took 5 of us stacked on someone to purposely kill them last night, and only 1 person died. unacceptable.

    Why have mechanics in a fight if you have to TRY to die to them lol.


    The game was released with the right level of difficultly, and now its made for people with helmets. Why do western devs always cave into the bads?

    WTB hard, and challenging content. Games are meant to be challenging no?

  9. #9
    Ascendant Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nashi View Post
    Why do western devs always cave into the bads?

    WTB hard, and challenging content. Games are meant to be challenging no?
    sssh, don't start it. hardcore/elitist flame inc!

    wasn't the difficulty btw, trion just thought dungeons are too hard for randoms and 2 healers. god bless random groups.

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