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Thread: End game dungeons need two difficulty levels.

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    Default End game dungeons need two difficulty levels.

    There is no way "Experts" will every appeal to everyone.

    Experts used to provide some sort of stimulation and possible reward between raids. Now, a lot of my guild doesn't even want to do them any more as they're stupidly easy and there's no worthwhile reward.

    However, the current easy mode has appeased numerous people that don't want a challenge.

    Catering to only one group will cost you the other, plain and simple. The best solution, as I see it, is to have two difficulty levels for end game dungeons.

    The dungeons PRE 1.2 will be the new and proper "Expert" dungeons.

    The current 1.2 "Experts" will be come "Hard" dungeons.

    This way, everyone can play the way the like and no one will have to leave because the game is a boring cake walk beyond the one night for raiding GSB or because it's too hard to run out of AOEs.

    Expert dungeons will be just like they were. Same pats, same pulls, same HP and damage, same drops. Experts used to be very rewarding, but it was a reward you had to work for.

    Hard dungeons will be like experts are now with only blues dropping and the last boss able to drop any epic from any boss. That way they can get some sort of reward for playing easy mode, but still have incentive to improve to do experts.

    I don't really care about the plaque changes, as I'm already geared. However, I can't understand why you would lower drop rates so severely, make the drops worse than plaque items, AND make plaque items more expensive.

    As it was, you could run for a few weeks and get pretty well geared. If you were missing something, you had acquired enough plaques to buy a piece for that slot. Worked perfect.

    Now, the dropped items are very rare... Which would make sense if they were better than plaque gear.
    Plaque rates were lowered and prices raised... which would make sense if worthwhile gear actually dropped to tide you over until you could afford them...

    As is, you have to grind 3 dungeons a day for a whole week to buy one piece of armor, while most likely getting NOTHING worth while for drops.

    Over night, the game literally went from "Hey good job with that challenging content, have this epic" to "Why would we give you epics? That dungeon was laughably easy, have this blue that'll drop EVERY time you come here because the loot table obviously wasn't designed for this... Now run this dungeon 40 more times to buy decent gear."

    Even if I didn't need gear, instances were still fun to run. Now they're just a bore and I can't be bothered to log in to help run the same easy crap over and over helping others gear up.

    It's like Trion is actually punishing us for playing.
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  2. #2
    Plane Walker ethix's Avatar
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    Get Ultimate Dungeon Hero then come back. Thx
    Brynx <Myth> Mage of Seastone

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    Get Ultimate Dungeon Hero then come back. Thx
    So... I should grind out the boring, unfun dungeons for meaningless achievements that have been made even simpler to get? If the content were fun on it's own, it wouldn't need achievements to get people to complete it.

    I don't give a flying **** about achievements. They mean exactly ****, and the rapid assault achievements are so easy, I got them on accident. If there were an achievement for getting herpes, would you do it? What is important is whether the game is fun or not, not some stupid ****ing number based on meeting menial criteria. Right now, the game is a hell of a lot less fun than it was.
    Welcome to Rift 1.2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden Fox View Post
    So... I should grind out the boring, unfun dungeons for meaningless achievements that have been made even simpler to get? If the content were fun on it's own, it wouldn't need achievements to get people to complete it.

    I don't give a flying **** about achievements. They mean exactly ****, and the rapid assault achievements are so easy, I got them on accident. If there were an achievement for getting herpes, would you do it? What is important is whether the game is fun or not, not some stupid ****ing number based on meeting menial criteria. Right now, the game is a hell of a lot less fun than it was.
    Doing the achievements brings the challenge back tbh, and is pretty fun. If 5 mans are too easy for you, get 5 more people and try out the new 10 man.

    I would prefer if 5 mans were a bit harder(meaning boss fights, I don't want longer/higher health trash pulls). But it's not that bad. I repeat, if you aren't being challenged by the 5 man content, move up to 10 or 20 man content.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker ethix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden Fox View Post
    So... I should grind out the boring, unfun dungeons for meaningless achievements that have been made even simpler to get? If the content were fun on it's own, it wouldn't need achievements to get people to complete it.

    I don't give a flying **** about achievements. They mean exactly ****, and the rapid assault achievements are so easy, I got them on accident. If there were an achievement for getting herpes, would you do it? What is important is whether the game is fun or not, not some stupid ****ing number based on meeting menial criteria. Right now, the game is a hell of a lot less fun than it was.
    Some people do see the achievements as extra content or like me, are completionist and want everything.

    Just because you have grinded out T2's, now have the gear to make them an aoe carnival of spam, doesn't mean they're "not fun". The word fun is completely subjective, and there are plenty of people who didn't race to 50 who are starting to experience the dungeons who see them as a challenge and new experience.

    Also, experts were not that tough, and the rewards are still relatively the same. They used to take forever because of the amount of trash a dungeon had, not because the bosses were particularly hard. The recent trash/dungoen nerfs and gear buff/drop rate reductions balance each other out. Clearing experts now takes half the time easily, even with a low geared group that has to run experts more to attain gear.

    Those changes were made to help those who were behind the curve. Most everyone who wanted the challenge of pre-nerfed dungeons already got the gear they needed. Now, Trion needs to adjust to let others get gear for raids so that the raiding environments can receive the attention required. Less players raiding content = less raiding content. Investors and management are not going to support content that doesn't get player attention.

    Sorry if you're behind the curve.
    Last edited by ethix; 05-25-2011 at 08:01 AM.
    Brynx <Myth> Mage of Seastone

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Capri Moon's Avatar
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    I agree with this 100%.

    Why please part of your customer base when, with minimal effort, you can please most of them instead?

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Callan's Avatar
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    100% agree. Normals should be what casuals do, experts should be for those willing to spend more time and looking for a challenge. I don't even run experts anymore as they are no fun. This should even be applied to the raid setting.

    Hardmode encounters are basically a way for the more hardcore guilds to progress after normal progression is done.

    As for the person that said go try the 10 man, I don't know about the op but last week we cleared it in an hour and a half. Which is shorter than my first old xDSM run.

    As it stands for raids in general atm. GSB is done in 2 hours give or take 30 mins. RoS is done in about 3. They are just loot piņatas, hardmodes to those would give us something to actually progress through again.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Amorascus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    Some people do see the achievements as extra content or like me, are completionist and want everything.
    Achievements as extra content? Lol...the achievements were somewhat difficult to get before the patch, now most of it is laughable. DSM rapid assault achievement was downright stupid, simply because of trash. Achievements in games really doesn't amount to anything. Its just Epeen +1.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    Just because you have grinded out T2's, now have the gear to make them an aoe carnival of spam, doesn't mean they're "not fun". The word fun is completely subjective, and there are plenty of people who didn't race to 50 who are starting to experience the dungeons who see them as a challenge and new experience.
    I hope they aren't seeing experts as a challenge. When I hit 50, I healed part of CC up to the second to last boss when I was in mostly blues. THAT was a challenge. Was it fun? Hellz yea. Its challenging, you get that feeling of "yes, that was fun, and I made a difference in our success". These experts now? People who have the basic T1 stuff can clear DSM, whereas before, that was nigh impossible.

    What Trion should have done was reduced the trash. I would rather wipe over and over on bosses and learn the fights, because I know that learning the raid bosses will be SOMEWHAT SIMILAR IN NATURE, than just breezing through it and hitting that wall when you start raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    Also, experts were not that tough, and the rewards are still relatively the same. They used to take forever because of the amount of trash a dungeon had, not because the bosses were particularly hard. The recent trash/dungoen nerfs and gear buff/drop rate reductions balance each other out. Clearing experts now takes half the time easily, even with a low geared group that has to run experts more to attain gear.
    Rewards are nowhere near the same in 1.2. You'll see when you can't get those purple weapons to drop because of borked loot tables. But then again why do casuals care about gear?You mention that clearing experts takes half the time (true). But is it more fulfilling?

    Imagine if, instead of all these zones to travel to, you were stuck killing 50 mobs in the starting area to level up every day, with a 2% chance to drop a new piece of gear. That's what the current dungeons feel like. Without the difficulty involved, I might as well be playing TF2 or L4D2, which is what I have been doing more, because at least the games are interesting and change every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    Those changes were made to help those who were behind the curve. Most everyone who wanted the challenge of pre-nerfed dungeons already got the gear they needed. Now, Trion needs to adjust to let others get gear for raids so that the raiding environments can receive the attention required. Less players raiding content = less raiding content. Investors and management are not going to support content that doesn't get player attention.
    They were changed because it wasn't Azeroth. While I agree that casuals should not be left out of the dungeons because they took 2-3hrs to complete (or DSM with its lovely 4-5 hrs), they could have simply removed the trash, adjusted HP on some bosses, and left the rest as it was. I think a lot of people would have been fine with that.

    Also, its funny that you mention "less players raiding content", because as far as I understand it, most casuals don't raid. Guess who does?
    50 Cleric - Silkweb Defiant - <1.21 Gigawatts>

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    lol this dude caught a lot more lash for this post than he thought he would i bet.

    i do think they made the experts way easy but who cares.

  10. #10
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    My understanding of Trion's actions here is that they never really intended expert dungeons to be the hardcore endgame content, they wanted raiding to take that role. Or at least, that's what they decided they wanted to do around the release of River of Souls came out so they could have something for hardcore players to do. Afterall, if dungeons were the 'hardcore' endgame, then there wouldn't be a whole lot for the non-hardcore players to do at 50. As such, they took action and lowered the difficulty. It's probably why they won't reverse course on this, and will rely on future challenging content coming out (raid tier 2 Hammerknell and the two new 10 mans) to satisfy players.

    On the other hand, its my opinion that challenging 5 man content should exist because when you start hitting 10 and 20 man content you really need scheduling, where as 5 man content can be done on a whim.
    Last edited by Doddler; 05-25-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  11. #11
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    Another option might be to add 1-2 optional bosses in T2s (and maybe T1s) that are significantly harder than the other bosses, sorta like Ouro way back in vanilla wow in AQ40. That would work well for both premades and pugs - if the PuG was bad (gear/skill/etc), you could simply skip them and finish off the instance. If it was a good PuG or you were in a guild group, you could take a swing at the optional bosses and get some bonus loot/added challenge, but still could just skip them in the end if it was working out poorly. Some bosses are already somewhat optional or just need minimal changes to make optional (Sparkwing in FC, Spider boss in IT, Icetalon in AP, Treeboss in Fae, several CC bosses, etc).

    Having the optional boss setup lets you control the difficulty on the fly rather than having to set it from the outset and doesn't fracture groups.
    Last edited by Steejee; 05-26-2011 at 05:44 AM.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander
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    The biggest thing for me is that they already have the programming to revert Dungeons back to the way they were (maybe even 5% harder) to create another tier of dungeons.

    All they need to do is make another option on dungeon difficulty (normal, expert, and Master(maybe?).

    That top level dungeon would be as it was before the patch and have the bosses drop 3x the plaques or maybe 2x and you get even more for completion.

    All bosses in the top tier drop epic loot (not many will need epics if they can do it on "master").

    This provides everything people could ask for. It also allows you to manage your time. If you have 2 hours and want a challenge your group does master. If you have 1/2 hour to kill jsut run an "Expert" and be done.

    It also provides more progression for casuals. I can remember in the first month of the game it was fun trying the new dungeons and seeing which ones your group could handle. Now I would imagine groups could do 1-2 T1s and then start on T2s once they have the hit/focus and toughness.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara
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    Trion has already started to lose a lot of its serious players. Raiding guilds have fallen apart, merged, left, whatever. Yes yes people come and go, but sometimes you bleed out.

    It is far more difficult than it should be to find nine solid players online to even tackle Gilded Prophecy. I think I can get upwards of 8 at any given time, but filling in those last two spots with casuals never goes well.

    I try to find better players in pugs, but they are all inept scooting through easy mode. Every time I end up with people from a more respectable guild, they are typically new recruits that play like ****.

    Personally I would love an in between tier from where experts used to be and the current raid content that would require 5-10 people. I want to start doing raid content, but I can never scrounge up enough good players at any given time. Rift Raids are fun, but unless you have completely solid DPS for every slot the timed phases are a *****. It would be nice to take on content that would require 6-8 people with a couple fluff spots that would offer enough in between progression to not remove the interest in 20 man raids, but enough to keep people who can't get 20 men to continue playing.

    Maybe I'm just on a ****ty low population server or maybe it is realistic to expect that any given shard might only have one worthwhile guild on it, but this is getting very frustrating quickly.

    Hopefully the server transfers will improve the situation.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Bump this is an idea that's been floating around that I definitely agree with.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equis View Post
    Doing the achievements brings the challenge back tbh, and is pretty fun. If 5 mans are too easy for you, get 5 more people and try out the new 10 man.

    I would prefer if 5 mans were a bit harder(meaning boss fights, I don't want longer/higher health trash pulls). But it's not that bad. I repeat, if you aren't being challenged by the 5 man content, move up to 10 or 20 man content.
    Translation: Herd more cats so you can enjoy the game.

    Response: You shouldn't have to herd more cats to enjoy the game.

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