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Thread: Stop. Making. Them. Easier.

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    Default Stop. Making. Them. Easier.

    Why call them experts if any skill needed to finish them is constantly being dumbed down?

    Normal IT at launch was hard, especially in the orb/shade area before the last boss. The ghosts would spawn constantly and murder you if you weren't by a light orb. This was good. It made people play smart, stick together, and not be morons. 2 months after launch, IT as a whole can just be zerged mindlessly. Ok... not a huge deal as it's a low level instance, but the same thing is starting to happen with the expert dungeons.

    If HUNDREDS of people have already beat them, they're not too easy! The people that can't beat them just can't play well or pay attention. Stop pandering to mediocrity.

    If you want to have EZ-mode for 50 content to keep "casuals" playing, make a new setting for instances where everything is level 50 but bosses only drop blues.
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    General of Telara I Fear Kittens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden Fox View Post
    Why call them experts if any skill needed to finish them is constantly being dumbed down?

    Normal IT at launch was hard, especially in the orb/shade area before the last boss. The ghosts would spawn constantly and murder you if you weren't by a light orb. This was good. It made people play smart, stick together, and not be morons. 2 months after launch, IT as a whole can just be zerged mindlessly. Ok... not a huge deal as it's a low level instance, but the same thing is starting to happen with the expert dungeons.

    If HUNDREDS of people have already beat them, they're not too easy! The people that can't beat them just can't play well or pay attention. Stop pandering to mediocrity.

    If you want to have EZ-mode for 50 content to keep "casuals" playing, make a new setting for instances where everything is level 50 but bosses only drop blues.
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    All mmo's usually do this when they add new content. They make previous content and gear more accessible so they can do it faster and progress to the new content. Most people haven't even started GSB yet, and slivers and RoS is already out. I see no reason not to make them easier, it can only help progression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickoli View Post
    All mmo's usually do this when they add new content. They make previous content and gear more accessible so they can do it faster and progress to the new content. Most people haven't even started GSB yet, and slivers and RoS is already out. I see no reason not to make them easier, it can only help progression.
    Perhaps because not all people not in GSB suck and want easymode. perhaps they are just getting a late start in the game or have less play time but still want to have a challenging encounter that they can be proud of themselves for beating and leave with a sense of acomplishment?

    If I wanted Easymode dungeons and faceroll dungeons I could be playing wow. I (and I think most) of us came to rift to get away from all the wow clones with their instant gratification and easymode dungeons.

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    as far as trash changes goes, i think the difficulty of trash was fine, but the time investment sucked.

    I want to spend time learning the bosses and playing with mechanics, not meat grinding millions of hp of mediocre pointless mobs.

    Time investment does not = difficulty.

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    I love the dungeon difficulty, but the point I've seen brought up time and again this past week is:

    They are adjusting(nerfing) the dungeons to fit their new "All Dungeons should be healable by one healer" policy, and the limitations of the LFG Tool.

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    Isz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    as far as trash changes goes, i think the difficulty of trash was fine, but the time investment sucked.

    I want to spend time learning the bosses and playing with mechanics, not meat grinding millions of hp of mediocre pointless mobs.

    Time investment does not = difficulty.
    Time investment = game mechanic

    Go play shadow of the colossus.

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    I can fully agree with this. However, instead of them making trash easier, I'd prefer they just put less in.

    They're reducing the HP of the mobs which makes each individual encounter easier but still requires 10 fights. I'd find it much preferable if the mobs stayed as hard as they are, but had some taken out. That way each fight would still be interesting and things could move more swiftly.

    I'd rather fight 5 packs of 400k mobs than 10 packs of 190k mobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    as far as trash changes goes, i think the difficulty of trash was fine, but the time investment sucked.

    I want to spend time learning the bosses and playing with mechanics, not meat grinding millions of hp of mediocre pointless mobs.

    Time investment does not = difficulty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isz View Post
    Time investment = game mechanic

    Go play shadow of the colossus.
    bosses have 212k hp usually in a t2(the most ive seen was nearly 400k on scarn), its a bit absurd that some trash mobs have 87k(or slightly more than a third of that)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    bosses have 212k hp usually in a t2(the most ive seen was nearly 400k on scarn), its a bit absurd that some trash mobs have 87k(or slightly more than a third of that)
    That number is largely meaningless as most boss encounters have ads or special mechanics which prevent dps on the boss for periods of time and thus increase the effective HP/time requirement of the boss.
    Most bosses aren't just trash mobs with 3x the health...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruin View Post
    That number is largely meaningless as most boss encounters have ads or special mechanics which prevent dps on the boss for periods of time and thus increase the effective HP/time requirement of the boss.
    Most bosses aren't just trash mobs with 3x the health...
    this is true

    but having a mob with almost no risk, and no mechanic, that can take 1-2 minutes to kill (depending on gear and whatnot) simply because they wanted a "bucket of hp mob to increase the length of the dungeon" is silly too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lixy View Post
    I love the dungeon difficulty, but the point I've seen brought up time and again this past week is:

    They are adjusting(nerfing) the dungeons to fit their new "All Dungeons should be healable by one healer" policy, and the limitations of the LFG Tool.
    I really really hope this isnt true, trion made a LFG tool and neglected to add a support/offhealer option to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarie View Post
    I really really hope this isnt true, trion made a LFG tool and neglected to add a support/offhealer option to it?
    Nope, but there are other problems. Chloro can't queue as a healer currently, and it takes no less than 44 points in bard for a rogue to queue as support. This, and you can instantly port all 5 members TO the instance, yet still have to soul recall OUT.
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    In answer to the OP:

    They're making it easier because despite all of the information and interviews given pre-launch, they are following the WoW path of development almost exactly. Launch with content overtuned for the average raiding guild, nerf repeatedly until a pack of dogs stomping on the keyboards could clear it. And in the meantime, constantly screw with PVE class balance and builds as a result of perceived PVP balance issues. Then consistently make gear more and more powerful and easier to get to compensate for designing a game that takes zero skill or effort to get to max level in, and as a result having a playerbase that has had zero incentive to learn to play well or delve into what their options are to make themselves more effective.

    It's unfortunate, because what drew myself and many others to this game was the idea Trion promoted of an MMO with familiar mechanics, but with a different development route that encouraged challenge, experimentation, and not playing another game that just repeated the same mistakes other MMOs have made repeatedly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarestar View Post
    In answer to the OP:

    They're making it easier because despite all of the information and interviews given pre-launch, they are following the WoW path of development almost exactly. Launch with content overtuned for the average raiding guild, nerf repeatedly until a pack of dogs stomping on the keyboards could clear it. And in the meantime, constantly screw with PVE class balance and builds as a result of perceived PVP balance issues. Then consistently make gear more and more powerful and easier to get to compensate for designing a game that takes zero skill or effort to get to max level in, and as a result having a playerbase that has had zero incentive to learn to play well or delve into what their options are to make themselves more effective.

    It's unfortunate, because what drew myself and many others to this game was the idea Trion promoted of an MMO with familiar mechanics, but with a different development route that encouraged challenge, experimentation, and not playing another game that just repeated the same mistakes other MMOs have made repeatedly.
    I don't think you can actually expect people to get better no more than say you can expect anyone to be able to play a sports at a professional level by simply working harder. For whatever reason, proficiency in MMORPGs seems to be every bit as fixed as your ability to shoot a basketball. In theory it seems like if you see the fire on the ground enough times eventually you'll know how to avoid it, but this doesn't appear to agree with reality. The guy who can only dodge the fire 50% of the time still can only dodge 50% of the time even if he has seen that mechanic 1000 times.

    So if stuff is too hard for the average person, it has to be dumbed down at some point because the average person never gets better at the game to beat it (assuming no gear handouts occur over time), and you wouldn't want people to feel like they're going nowhere.

    The discussion on Caelia in CC is actually a pretty good example of what I'm describing. Although doing some research will reveal that hugging the adds on Caelia completely negates getting one-shot by Wild Lightning which should allow you to beat the fight (if you do this correctly but still lose to Caelia it's not clear how you were ever able get to her in the first place). That is to say, for most people they never become better at this fight and therefore they can never beat Caelia (without just hoping they get lucky on the Wild Lightnings) so this fight becomes 'broken' for the average player. Assuming you don't hand out gear to allow people to survive 8K+ Wild Lightnings, that means the fight has to be made easier at some point or some people will never have a chance to beat it. Now it's okay to say some stuff shouldn't be accessible to everyone, but this isn't exactly heroic 25 man raid level of stuff we're talking about here, and as a company you can't risk alienating the playerbase on stuff like that.
    Last edited by Astarica; 05-06-2011 at 07:05 PM.

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