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Thread: Stop. Making. Them. Easier.

  1. #31
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    The problem with trying to define success by subs is that nobody actually knows what they are so everyone is basically just making stuff up. That said the census is still a bit better than just randomly guessing. WoW census shows decline about a few month after the ICC cycle, but it's hard to tell if that's because it was too easy or people just got tired of doing the same thing over and over. Revenue figures from Blizzard themselves shows that WoW was at peak around the same time, and after that revenue declined significantly (on the order of $15 million/monthly). However the decline might not be as big as it appears since nobody really knows how much WoW makes per person, but it's definitely more than just your monthly fee since there are services/microtransaction involved. Still, the revenue doesn't lie, and certainly there is no reason why Blizzard would want to report lower revenues so you can see even a game like WoW is subject to the whims of its population.

    I thought about the issue more and I think EQ can set you back behind because it enforces some really hard gear/time checks. For a fight like Avatar of War, you absolutely cannot beat it in under say, 5000 man-hours. The fight itself is actually pretty trivial in terms of mechanics and probably can be mastered in 1 day, but until you put in the effort to farm the gear on your tank, healers, and DPS (primals are a huge factor in that fight), you simply have no realistic chance of beating him. When you go from wiping at 90% to 70% really your raid isn't being better at it. It's slowly chipping away at the time/gear requirement. Being good lets you chip away that requirement faster, but you're not going to beat AoW without primals or a tank can withstand his melee damage no matter how good you are.

    Fast forward to present, gear/time checks are very minimal. If I can assemble the best 20 MMORPG players in the world, I should expect to steamroll any content in any modern MMORPG. After all, it's not like we should expect completely new concepts nobody has seen before. The problem with skill-based games is that if encounter X requires skill level Y to beat, and your average guy don't have skill level Y, then they will never beat it without a handout or a nerf.

    Why wasn't EQ like this? Because the skill level to beat most memorable encounter is actually very low. You can meet plenty of guys in Top 5 EQ guilds who have no idea how to play the game. Does this mean EQ has no skill? No, because somebody in the guild has to have the skill to keep the time needed to beat the encounter to a sane number. This also means a guild with low skill can still eventually chip away the gear/time requirement if they just go after an encounter long enough, because the skill requirement is very low.

    I think where MMORPG went wrong is when encounters become mostly skill-based because this creates a scenario where the average population cannot advance unless content is tuned toward the average guy, but in that case the content will be trivial to any decent player. If you look at EQ, anybody willing to put in the 5000 man-hours can eventually beat the Avatar of War. If you have the best 72 MMORPG players in the world, maybe you only need to put in 2500 or 2000 hours to get there, but you still got to put in that time. Whereas in EQ most encounters you can always progress by chipping away the gear requirement, newer games you quickly run into a bottleneck at your skill level. If the boss enrages at 20% you know your DPS isn't going to be 25% better anytime soon without a gear handout. If always wipe to some AE you're supposed to interrupt but cannot, you know it's unlikely your guys suddenly 'get it' and pull it off. If you have 5 guys who always stand in fire and die, you know they're still going to do that next time. So you know that your guild really isn't going anywhere and you end up demanding a handout or a nerf because otherwise you won't progress.

  2. #32
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    I'm not totally geared out. I don't like it because it sets the precedent for future content to be stupid easy.

    I haven't cleared DSM yet and I've only done DD once. AP probably 5 times, CC twice...

    Grind is not fun. Challenge is. Greenscale is challenge. RoS is grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    If you've already completed it, why should you care? Or are you one of those people that continues to do zones once you're geared out?
    Welcome to Rift 1.2
    No Challenge. No Reward. No Point.

  3. #33
    Rift Master Rhendali's Avatar
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    Personally, I thought all the experts were fun and interesting. Challenging the first time through, easy after that. As it is, it's perfectly possible to solo heal the vast majority of experts at entry level. Making them even easier is just silly pandering to the casuals and bad players. However, as I no longer have any reason to do experts (fully raid geared with 1200 plaques gathering dust), the change doesn't really affect me. My only real issue is that this game seems to be trying to bring back support classes - if you want to resurrect support roles, why would you make the dungeons even easier?
    Nymaeria < Hate > : Level 50 Eth Cleric (Sentinel/Warden/Justicar) on Briarcliff
    Rhendali < Hate > : Level 50 Eth Rogue (Riftstalker/Bladedancer/Ranger) on Briarcliff

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden Fox View Post
    Why call them experts if any skill needed to finish them is constantly being dumbed down?

    Normal IT at launch was hard, especially in the orb/shade area before the last boss. The ghosts would spawn constantly and murder you if you weren't by a light orb. This was good. It made people play smart, stick together, and not be morons. 2 months after launch, IT as a whole can just be zerged mindlessly. Ok... not a huge deal as it's a low level instance, but the same thing is starting to happen with the expert dungeons.

    If HUNDREDS of people have already beat them, they're not too easy! The people that can't beat them just can't play well or pay attention. Stop pandering to mediocrity.

    If you want to have EZ-mode for 50 content to keep "casuals" playing, make a new setting for instances where everything is level 50 but bosses only drop blues.
    uhh no. With each update brings new content and raids. its important that people on the back end dont get so far behind on content

    If you're a masochist, EVE is perfect for you. They refuse to "dumb" down stuff. It right up your ally.
    I really enjoy the fact this topic has NOTHING to do about Rift, and it turned into a Rift fest.

    I'm just gonna report my own thread and be done with it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickoli View Post
    All mmo's usually do this when they add new content. They make previous content and gear more accessible so they can do it faster and progress to the new content. Most people haven't even started GSB yet, and slivers and RoS is already out. I see no reason not to make them easier, it can only help progression.
    WoW does this, not all MMOs...

  6. #36
    Plane Walker mewKelliemew's Avatar
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    We'er not in azeroth anymore, ORLY?
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewKelliemew View Post
    We'er not in azeroth anymore, ORLY?
    Hit 50 and warp to azeroth, i think they were referring to the leveling .... There being rifts and soul combinations and what not ...

    lol..

    sad to say, rift endgame is a horrible, boring recycled bunch of content...

    If only leveling was 100 levels and the end game dungeons were actually new... not the same damn thing you did while you were leveling.

  8. #38
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    I can say without a doubt CC and DSM are both too hard for introductory 5 man content. I'm on the fence about if the rest should be changed at all but those 2 are over the top.

  9. #39
    Shadowlander Varol's Avatar
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    Great people with full t1 gear and mb some t2 to are complaining that IT is an easy dungeon.

    I can say same thing about DM now after im tired of it. Guess what i lost about 7 hours to finish it first time and i had to recover my soul for about 2 times.

    My *** was ***** so hard in FAE at first atempt that i went in that dungeon only after i had full t1 with half t2 gear.

    Even if i can do now FC in 3 people (tank, healer, dps) i remember tons of wipes in this dungeon when i first did 50.

    So as some other players explained u: the dungeons dificulty are equals with your gear. U have full t1 u run t2 dungeons, u have full t2 u run GS or ROS and so on.

    More then this will be a bit pathetic if i wipe at three kings when im full t2 dont u think?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarestar View Post
    There's absolutely no reason that shouldn't be done. The argument of "I pay the same, I should be able to experience all the content" is a straw man designed to disguise the fact that what that argument really says is "I should get the same rewards without putting in the same effort."
    It only says it to loot ****** for whom 'content' means pretty purple pixels.
    Last edited by Kerin; 05-09-2011 at 02:56 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    It only says it to loot ****** for whom 'content' means pretty purple pixels.
    No?

    The MMO genre is virtually the only one that follows this pattern. Largely because of the subscription fee. Somewhere along the line a lot of people got the idea that the subscription fee was like a backstage pass. It's not, and shouldn't be. It's an access fee to a game that requires constant overhead for maintenance and development.

    Every other game, pretty much, follows the idea that you have to actually be good at the game and willing to put the time in in order to beat it/get all the achievements/earn the special rewards/etc. If you choose a lower difficulty setting, the majority of the time you miss out on content, whether it be rewards, achievements, a different ending, etc. If you want the greater rewards, you have to put in the time/play better.

    The MMO genre is the only one where you consistently see players demanding that the developers make it easier for them without providing less reward - and that's not even a matter of, as you put it, pretty purple pixels, although oddly enough if you actually look through most of the posting from the people in question, what they're complaining about specifically is that they can't get the same loot without having to spend the same amount of time and effort. You've got the occasional one that's complaining he can't see it for lore acquisition or for aesthetic quality but it's extremely rare.

    In a game like Rift that complaint rings particularly hollow - the level of skill required to progress in this game is NOT high. Neither is the time requirement. Anyone asking for the game to be dumbed down at this point is either flat not bothering or is so terrible that no matter how much they dumb it down, that person is going to have to be carried unless the devs take it to a point of actually making the NPCs die automatically.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
    I don't think you can actually expect people to get better no more than say you can expect anyone to be able to play a sports at a professional level by simply working harder. For whatever reason, proficiency in MMORPGs seems to be every bit as fixed as your ability to shoot a basketball. In theory it seems like if you see the fire on the ground enough times eventually you'll know how to avoid it, but this doesn't appear to agree with reality. The guy who can only dodge the fire 50% of the time still can only dodge 50% of the time even if he has seen that mechanic 1000 times.

    So if stuff is too hard for the average person, it has to be dumbed down at some point because the average person never gets better at the game to beat it (assuming no gear handouts occur over time), and you wouldn't want people to feel like they're going nowhere.

    Do we dumb down job requirements and ask for "experts" but provide the same incentives and pay as those doing much more challenging jobs? (yeah yeah, I know there are holes here.. what with CEOs getting paid millions for doing.. almost nothing)

    Don't call it an "expert" if it's being dumbed down so that AVERAGE PLAYERS can do it. Do you not see the misnomer there?

    Now to discuss your "arguments":

    Quote Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
    The discussion on Caelia in CC is actually a pretty good example of what I'm describing. Although doing some research will reveal that hugging the adds on Caelia completely negates getting one-shot by Wild Lightning which should allow you to beat the fight (if you do this correctly but still lose to Caelia it's not clear how you were ever able get to her in the first place).
    No. This is the mechanic. You're confusing "it's bugged, but if you do it this way, it somehow works." This is what we call "doing it right." If the fight becomes incredibly simple if the entire party can properly pull off the mechanic dance, you've just successfully learned and won a fight. Congratulations, and welcome to MMORPGs. You stack on adds, down them quickly and hold dps on the last one to let the debuffs fall off, then kill it and eat a few ticks until you can get out of the lightning. It's very, very simple. After the first attempt 3 statics I was running with never wiped to this, even with fresh 50s who would die on the first pass (I've 4-manned this I don't know how many times). The only HARD thing about this fight is getting the achievement for it. Holy ****. It's pure RNG -- cool Trion, just like the GSB one for pulling 3 or less wolves on Hylas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
    That is to say, for most people they never become better at this fight and therefore they can never beat Caelia (without just hoping they get lucky on the Wild Lightnings) so this fight becomes 'broken' for the average player.
    Jesus dude. I hope you can see how bad this logic is. I've seen some of the worst players in this game follow a strat properly and pull off T2 content pre-nerf. Nothing here is broken. We've had fights bugged as hell but still doable, and that's what this should be, honestly. I hate the binary mechanics T2 bosses have to offer, I liked old Scarn and I like killing the incinerator Gedlo last. Things that made fights actually challenging. FC when the gun boss was bugged.. awesome. Experts shouldn't be a dance, those should be normals IMO. Experts should be everyone is playing at capacity and anyone messing up, even one time is a guaranteed wipe for the party. I shouldn't be ending fights at 90% mana and only needing 400-500 HPS. I can do that with only hots. That's stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
    Assuming you don't hand out gear to allow people to survive 8K+ Wild Lightnings, that means the fight has to be made easier at some point or some people will never have a chance to beat it. Now it's okay to say some stuff shouldn't be accessible to everyone, but this isn't exactly heroic 25 man raid level of stuff we're talking about here, and as a company you can't risk alienating the playerbase on stuff like that.
    You don't sit in wild lightning. If you're incapable of realizing you should move out of it, you shouldn't be running EXPERT DUNGEONS.

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