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Thread: Trion: Please revise the need/greed system

  1. #1
    Shadowlander baronlior's Avatar
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    Default Trion: Please revise the need/greed system

    Hi Trion, All,

    I started to do rift raiding few days ago and came into situation that reminded me a lot the early days of WOW before having the "need/greed/pass" loot tool:
    1. We set a master looter
    2. Each blue drop starts a discussion: need for main role, need for second role, greed

    Why is that?
    There is this (Exciting!!) role system which allows me (for instance) be a tank or a DPS. I usually tank, but sometimes go DPS - so would like to gear my DPS role as well.
    When a DPS gear drops I wouldn't like to need it from someone who plays DPS as his main role, but I would be very unhappy to roll "greed" and then someone may win greed and sell it to a vendor.

    I think the Need/Greed/Pass is excellent for early game where multi-roles are not very prominent aspect of the game but later on, having the role system, requires also to change the loot tool into the following options:
    • Need - Main Role
    • Need - Secondary Role
    • Greed
    • Pass

    This would be a small but excellent enhancement to raiding.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    aux
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    But I have 4 main roles.
    I'm so BORED

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by aux View Post
    But I have 4 main roles.
    This is the main problem here.

    Everyone has the potential to play at least 3 roles (Warriors have no healing soul unlike the others) so it's not at all as simple as looking at the class and deciding. It does require discussion, to avoid drama, as to how loot can be rolled on for a group run, especially since, say, Clerics can wear cloth which at times give them better stats for one of their casting roles than chain.

    There are several options and none is "right" or "wrong" but there's no "it's obvious" view for 95% of gear I would argue.

    The flexibility of the soul/role system has greatly complicated that simplistic loot assignment 'rules' applied in the 'other' game, and elsewhere.
    Last edited by Kerin; 05-04-2011 at 12:20 AM.

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    Shadowlander baronlior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    Everyone has the potential to play at least 3 roles (Warriors have no healing soul unlike the others) so it's not at all as simple as looking at the class and deciding. It does require discussion, to avoid drama, as to how loot can be rolled on for a group run, especially since, say, Clerics can wear cloth which at times give them better stats for one of their casting roles than chain.
    The idea is not to automate the decision or enforcement, but trust the people you run with and let them express themselves more easily.

    About having 4 main roles: I think each (mature) person can decide what he likes best / does a little more often and roll "bigger needs" for it, while gearing the other roles as well with a bit lower priority. After all - I don't see a guild that will accept someone "needing for his 4 roles" (will it be healing, tanking, ranged and melee dps - I guess)

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    I generally like the idea of having "need main" and "need secondary".

    But in a guild run this is usually not an issue, as the guild members know what the main role of other players is. And if you want an item for an off-spec, you can ask on your guilds voice tool. And if someone got a nice item they don't really need, they likely give it to someone else in the guild for free.

    And in PuG dungeon runs there is a bigger problem. You don't know the people. You don't know what their main role is. And as the others are strangers there is a lower threshold to cheat on them by needing on an item for the sole purpose of selling it (especially on BoE epics for the AH).

    So in the end, for guilds you don't need a more refined system as they use other measures of loot distribution, and for PuGs everyone would say "need main" anyway if a nice item drops. I have seen players needing on loot which was worse than the equipment they already have. And then there are players needing on purestones (those rift drops which reveal planarite and essences) when 15 other players already greeded no it. People confuse "need" with "i am very greedy and want to win over others who are stupid enough to only select greed".

    The only "fair" option would be a trusted master looter who decides the possibility of a need roll just by the role players are using right now.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Lojen's Avatar
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    The multi role thing can be a bit of an issue. Had some drama in a recent run where the tank warrior needed on some DPS gear. Now he prefers playing DPS and indeed wanted to go DPS for this particular run but had to tank as we couldn't find another.

    What is correct etiquette in such a situation? Amusingly he didn't win the roll but still got moaned at. It had been said before the run that he would be rolling on DPS but I guess some didn't see that. Of course it's best to just run in guild with people you know, but that's not always an option for everybody.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    There are solutions in Game Theory that look at fair distribution of loot in various ways. Some guilds use approximations to such systems, and it's high time a games company took a leap into the dark and introduced such a system, at least as a looting option. Unfortunately, the only games company that seems to take a sufficiently academic approach to its game is CCP, and Eve is the one game that doesn't need a loot distribution system.

  8. #8
    aux
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lojen View Post
    The multi role thing can be a bit of an issue. Had some drama in a recent run where the tank warrior needed on some DPS gear. Now he prefers playing DPS and indeed wanted to go DPS for this particular run but had to tank as we couldn't find another.

    What is correct etiquette in such a situation? Amusingly he didn't win the roll but still got moaned at. It had been said before the run that he would be rolling on DPS but I guess some didn't see that. Of course it's best to just run in guild with people you know, but that's not always an option for everybody.
    The correct etiquette in such a situation is to not make drama.
    (and if you do, post screenshots so we can all enjoy the show)
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  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara
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    By the time you're hitting T2's, people usually are pretty clear on what their preferred main and offspecs are... and quite often you will see clerics saying 'needing for offspec' for example if no one else has needed on it.

    I do think it'd be nice to have a spot in between, because there are times when I'd like a 'try it out' or use as a stat stick kind of roll where I don't want to take it away from someone who needs it, but would use it more than the people who are greeding on it to vendor/salvage/runebreak.

    Been a couple times I lost something that'd be a sidegrade but would open up a new spec option to a greed role to someone who couldn't equip it, because of the above reason.

    So yeah, I could get behind an option that allows to choose between a Need - Main spec/Need - Offspec (Statstick roll)/Greed.
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    Sword of Telara Hrimnir's Avatar
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    There is a very simple solution to the problem:

    You roll for what "role" you're playing in the particular raid. If you try to do otherwise your guild leader either reprimands you and punishes you, or kicks you out of the guild. Its really quite simple.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer tordana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    There is a very simple solution to the problem:

    You roll for what "role" you're playing in the particular raid. If you try to do otherwise your guild leader either reprimands you and punishes you, or kicks you out of the guild. Its really quite simple.
    Did you read this thread? At all?

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
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    I think the main spec/off spec thing is a relic from the past and not really suitable for Rift.

    In Rift every class is a hybrid. If you're a warrior who doesn't need tank gear you're not someone who's entitled to special loot priorities, you're someone who can't fully play your class.

    What's more the loot is absolutely terribly designed from the perspective of fair distribution. For example cleric tanks need focus and toughness and parry, block dodge. But they don't need every piece to have those stats. So if a piece with good general stats drops it's still a good pick for a cleric tank provided they can reach the Toughness cap with other gear. Likewise for dps clerics. They need Focus but they don't need Focus on every piece.

    This creates a hierarchy for chain gear with healers at the bottom:

    Does it have Toughness? tanks need, dps and healers greed

    Does it have dodge, parry, block? tanks need, dps and healers greed

    Does it have focus? tanks and dps need, healers greed.

    Does it have none of the above but good general cleric stats? tanks dps and healers need.


    Not to mention that there's also a case for clerics needing cloth and/or physical stat items.
    Last edited by Stabsy; 05-05-2011 at 06:38 AM.
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  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    I see the purestones mentioned. I have noticed a lot of people use greed on those. I say need as I will almost certainly use them.
    That's what need is for no? If you are going to actually use that item?

    As for needing for your secondary specs, I don't think there's ANY system you can put in place, it all comes down to trust in the end.
    I guess there could be a simple system whereby you CAN'T say Need on something for a warrior if you aren't a warrior..
    Another way (but probably too complex to work) would be to have the system know everything you are wearing for all your soul setups, and to know when an item is similar but better. It could then recommend you say Need or Greed based on that.

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Kayden Fox's Avatar
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    You should only be able to NEED on gear for you class.
    Armor--
    Mages- Cloth
    Clerics- Chain
    Rogues- Leather
    Warriors- Plate

    Weapons-
    2-h str/dex - Warriors
    2-h Wis/int - Cleric, Mage
    1-h dex/str - Rogue
    1-h str/dex - warrior
    1-h Wis/int - Cleric, Mage
    Shield +Wis - Cleric
    Sheild +Str - Warrior

    Accesories-
    Str/dex- Warrior/Rogue
    Str+block - Warrior
    Wis + block - Cleric
    Int/wis - mage, cleric
    +healing - Mage, Cleric, and arguable rogue for bard.
    +spell power - Mage, cleric
    Anything else like potions, tokens, souls, rift loot should be greed or pass.

    I've seen too many rogues roll NEED on +block gear FOR TANKING or +spell power FOR BARDING. Warrior's taking 2h maces with wisdom for the DPS.

    Yes, anyone with half a brain know what items are for which class... but this is the internet and thinking most people have half a brain is optimistic at best.

    It'd be nice to have a current/of spec rule, because I've been tanking an instance and been out needed on epics for tanking. I asked if he had a tank spec and he said, "no, but I was thinking about getting one." This kind of idiocy just makes me want to choke people... but on the same token if I'm tanking and DPS gear drops, I am going to want it... but that's with me being actively DPS and TANK... not maybe sorta some day BS.
    Last edited by Kayden Fox; 05-06-2011 at 08:19 AM.
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