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Thread: Progression/endgame.. What is it?

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    Plane Touched Lemmy's Avatar
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    Default Progression/endgame.. What is it?

    Not sure if I'm going to put this very well - but I've been thinking about the whole progression thing and how it's been done in Rift (and other big games beforehand).. And just questioning - is it the right way?

    So we currently have lvl 1-50 (where 50 is achievable pretty damn quick)
    Then T1/T2/Raids (or PvP tiers 1-6) (Commonly known as endgame)

    So stepping back a bit here and trying to look at the wood instead of the trees... What it all boils down to is progression from lvl1 to Greenscale. Level 50 isn't really endgame - there's still so much progression to do. I wouldn't like to put a number on how much of your time is spent 'progressing' after lvl50 as opposed to pre-50, but I'll bet the post-50 is the larger part. Only it becomes gear-based progression rather than level-based. It also becomes instance-based rather than open-world.

    So why the split? Why not just go from, say lvl 1-100? and have T1 experts doable from, say level 50.. T2 from lvl 70, Raid stuff from lvl 80 etc.. Along with more open world zones/quests etc. for the higher levels?
    Why not keep it level-based? And open world?

    I'm thinking that the answer lies in development costs - in that it's cheaper to create a bunch of instanced stuff that is repeatable ad infinitum than to add more open-world areas/mobs/questlines...
    But is that what we really want?

    I honestly think I would have been happier if it took a lot longer to level and spent more time in the open-world zones - and that on hitting the max level, there was no tiered, gear-based progression afterwards - just different routes/methods to get your lvl50 purples (and have more gear available - but with equivalent levels of 'power' - just different stat allocations for different builds - crafted gear being equivalent here too). If it meant running out of quests for a few levels in each zone and having to grind mobs or do dungeons - then fine (I kind of remember old games having quests that guided you to grind-spots - s you would naturally grind for a bit in your quest location.. more time fighting, less running from A-B??).

    I don't know - I just think that instance-based gear-progression was always initially a band-aid to cater for those who level faster than the designers intended - but still want more progression. It just seems wrong for a game to be designed that way from the ground up.

    And before anyone says.. Yes, I do think I bought the wrong game. (but what's the alternative in the current market?)

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Lemmy; 05-03-2011 at 05:04 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant xtorma's Avatar
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    On the plus side , they are making dungeons easier , so you will be able to speed through most end game progression now.
    Minsc and Boo
    All time favorite RPG characters.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched Jennibel's Avatar
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    I agree, it's an odd development decision. To put so much focus on the aspect of the game that took the least amount of time and money to develop? Some people may like it, but if I'd experienced Rift's endgame back in open beta/trial, I wouldn't have bought it. Because it's not the game for me, as they say.

    I got to 50, and to me, it felt like game over. I enjoyed it while it lasted, but felt like it went by so quickly. Since I've never been that motivated by loot and equipment in MMOs, and I hate forced grouping and instancing.. well, my sub expires in another day or two.
    Last edited by Jennibel; 05-03-2011 at 05:17 AM.

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    Sword of Telara Dazee's Avatar
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    I slowly progressed from lvl 1 with my mage to level 50. Only like 3.5 days actually played but it took me about 2 months. Now that I am 50 I am have a ton of fun, doing Tiered dungeons, and raid rifts. Finally getting into Greenscales Blight. I enjoy the endgame PVE that MMO's have grown accustom to over the last few years. No complaints here.

    Progressed slowly and still have tons of stuff to do.


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  5. #5
    Plane Touched Lemmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennibel View Post
    Since I've never been that motivated by loot and equipment in MMOs, and I hate forced grouping and instancing.. well, my sub expires in another day or two.
    That's me. Seems that 1-50 and 50+ are totally different games, catering to different types of players. That's something they messed up imho.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Jennibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    That's me. Seems that 1-50 and 50+ are totally different games, catering to different types of players. That's something they messed up imho.
    Exactly, and I hadn't really thought about it this way, until now. Some people love the Rift endgame, I get that. I just don't get why the drastic shift in game type at 50, as the OP points out. Seems like they could have done a better job of catering to one audience or the other, and have lost a lot of their initial playerbase the way they've done it.

    Maybe they should have appealed to people who like this sort of endgame, from the beginning. Or made the endgame more like the 1-50 game. Either way, I think, would have been more successful in the long run.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker ethix's Avatar
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    However, Trion wouldn't make the error of going with a failed development model for end game. Blizzard followed this model, and they honed and essentially "perfected" end-game content.

    Also, achievements are a large part of end game progression for some as well.
    Brynx <Myth> Mage of Seastone

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    Plane Touched Jennibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethix View Post
    However, Trion wouldn't make the error of going with a failed development model for end game. Blizzard followed this model, and they honed and essentially "perfected" end-game content.

    Also, achievements are a large part of end game progression for some as well.
    WoW has the advantage of being HUGE. Not because everything about the game contributes to making it huge, but rather, anything they do has the immense safety net of pre-existing popularity. I know that seems counterintuitive, but think about it. They can totally screw up, but people will still keep playing it due to a sort of critical mass they've achieved.

    That's why wow-clones never succeed. They're not building on the same sort of foundation. They're copying something that might not be so successful in any other MMO.

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    Prophet of Telara Albane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post

    So why the split? Why not just go from, say lvl 1-100? and have T1 experts doable from, say level 50.. T2 from lvl 70, Raid stuff from lvl 80 etc.. Along with more open world zones/quests etc. for the higher levels?
    Why not keep it level-based? And open world?

    Thoughts?
    Everyone would solo grind their ***** to 100, then go back and slaughter that content. Game over, no challenge. The level cap puts people on a closer playing field, where the only difference is gear and skill, and gear means less in this game than any other MMO I have played before.

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    Prophet of Telara Albane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    That's me. Seems that 1-50 and 50+ are totally different games, catering to different types of players. That's something they messed up imho.
    The 1-50 crowd quits the game after reaching level 50. Total profits = $50 + $15

    The 50+ crowd continues to play and pushes them self for the smallest piece of character improvment. Total Profits = $50 + ($15 * months they can continue to add new gear)

    Who would you cater to?

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Not sure if I'm going to put this very well - but I've been thinking about the whole progression thing and how it's been done in Rift (and other big games beforehand).. And just questioning - is it the right way?

    So we currently have lvl 1-50 (where 50 is achievable pretty damn quick)
    Then T1/T2/Raids (or PvP tiers 1-6) (Commonly known as endgame)

    So stepping back a bit here and trying to look at the wood instead of the trees... What it all boils down to is progression from lvl1 to Greenscale. Level 50 isn't really endgame - there's still so much progression to do. I wouldn't like to put a number on how much of your time is spent 'progressing' after lvl50 as opposed to pre-50, but I'll bet the post-50 is the larger part. Only it becomes gear-based progression rather than level-based. It also becomes instance-based rather than open-world.

    So why the split? Why not just go from, say lvl 1-100? and have T1 experts doable from, say level 50.. T2 from lvl 70, Raid stuff from lvl 80 etc.. Along with more open world zones/quests etc. for the higher levels?
    Why not keep it level-based? And open world?

    I'm thinking that the answer lies in development costs - in that it's cheaper to create a bunch of instanced stuff that is repeatable ad infinitum than to add more open-world areas/mobs/questlines...
    But is that what we really want?

    I honestly think I would have been happier if it took a lot longer to level and spent more time in the open-world zones - and that on hitting the max level, there was no tiered, gear-based progression afterwards - just different routes/methods to get your lvl50 purples (and have more gear available - but with equivalent levels of 'power' - just different stat allocations for different builds - crafted gear being equivalent here too). If it meant running out of quests for a few levels in each zone and having to grind mobs or do dungeons - then fine (I kind of remember old games having quests that guided you to grind-spots - s you would naturally grind for a bit in your quest location.. more time fighting, less running from A-B??).

    I don't know - I just think that instance-based gear-progression was always initially a band-aid to cater for those who level faster than the designers intended - but still want more progression. It just seems wrong for a game to be designed that way from the ground up.

    And before anyone says.. Yes, I do think I bought the wrong game. (but what's the alternative in the current market?)

    Thoughts?
    Capping the game at Lvl 50 leaves room for expansions hence more profit. Capping the game at Lvl 100 in one swoop would not only degrade the quality of the content because it would rushed but it wouldn't allow for any expanding. Lvl 100 is seen by many as the end all of leveling and would wrap up an MMO way to quickly. Don't forget Trion isn't here just to enrich our lives with a great gaming experience... there are here to make those Benjamins most of all.

    Personally I would have it no other way

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Lemmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albane View Post
    Everyone would solo grind their ***** to 100, then go back and slaughter that content. Game over, no challenge. The level cap puts people on a closer playing field, where the only difference is gear and skill, and gear means less in this game than any other MMO I have played before.
    Not necessarily.. I found in Rift, those who levelled by doing lots dungeon runs, not only levelled quicker, but had better gear from it.
    Those who want to solo to 100 could do that (and it would be the slow way). Those who want to do the dungeon stuff, steam ahead and get the server firsts etc. can group up as now and will get ahead for it.

    Gear may be less of an impact here than in some other games - but it can easily make more difference than levels. 30% dmg reduction from R6 valour vs 0% from lvl50 greens? Not to mention the stat/armour/weapondps differences..

    Difference in effectiveness is difference in effectiveness regardless of whether it comes from gear or level...
    Only it's easier to segregate by level than it is by gear - whether for WF's or for instances..

    idk.. I'd just rather that extra content was added for both the solo crowd and the raid crowd and not just just the raid crowd. If you are worried that everyone would solo grind to 100 - doesn't that indicate where their core market actually lies and what they should be focusing on?

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Verez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Not necessarily.. I found in Rift, those who levelled by doing lots dungeon runs, not only levelled quicker, but had better gear from it.
    Those who want to solo to 100 could do that (and it would be the slow way). Those who want to do the dungeon stuff, steam ahead and get the server firsts etc. can group up as now and will get ahead for it.

    Gear may be less of an impact here than in some other games - but it can easily make more difference than levels. 30% dmg reduction from R6 valour vs 0% from lvl50 greens? Not to mention the stat/armour/weapondps differences..

    Difference in effectiveness is difference in effectiveness regardless of whether it comes from gear or level...
    Only it's easier to segregate by level than it is by gear - whether for WF's or for instances..

    idk.. I'd just rather that extra content was added for both the solo crowd and the raid crowd and not just just the raid crowd. If you are worried that everyone would solo grind to 100 - doesn't that indicate where their core market actually lies and what they should be focusing on?
    Ok and what happens when you ding 100? Make the same thread and ask the level cap to be 200? I suggest you play Lineage2, it has everything you want.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Lemmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verez View Post
    Ok and what happens when you ding 100? Make the same thread and ask the level cap to be 200? I suggest you play Lineage2, it has everything you want.
    Is it any different to getting the last raid boss on farm and getting all the gear from it? Once you've done everything, you've done everthing - whether it's max gear or max level.

    btw, I'm not asking for anything - just trying to provoke a mature discussion around different ways to progress.. personally, I think the current post-50 progression route is developed 'on the cheap' when compared to 1-50, and wonder why we pay a monthly fee to accept that?

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    My thought is that the OP needs to stop playing RIFT. Obviously it isn't right for you, so stop b-itching and G-TFO... kthx.
    Last edited by auslanderplates; 05-04-2011 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Bad words needed hyphenating.

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