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Thread: Lack of flexibility in raiding is the real problem these days.

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara TheGreatGoogly's Avatar
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    Default Lack of flexibility in raiding is the real problem these days.

    For those who dont know what i mean it is that raid makeups have become too strict and too specific. Most raid content nowadays you need exactly the max number of available raid slots filled. This in turn always leads to the same problems....Guild Drama.

    Just about every raid night one of two things happens.
    A) You dont have quite enough people on to accomplish the raid.
    B) You have too many people on and have to pass over and sit other guild members.

    Both A and B end up causing drama. Very often they tear a raid guild apart as B will end up leading to A. And A leads to the eventual death of the guild. Honestly this didnt used to be a big issue back in the EQ1 days. Raid sizes were so large that you could beat the content with a max 72 players or 50 or in some cases 40's depending on the gear quality/skill of the people involved. Of course there is the issue of challenge involved, zerging, and what gets lost with allowing too much flexibility. All valid criticisms. But in the end. Most raiders/gamers just want to RAID and do something with their time. Sitting around on friday night unable to beat Infiltrator Johlen because you only had 18 people on and HAD to have that extra 2 DPS to meet the DPS check is not fun in the least.

    Rift raids honestly brought some of this flexibility back. It was a breath of fresh air in a time where MMO's have become way to strict with raid setups. Its become overtuned in the wrong ways. Many of the encounters in GSB actually wouldnt get exponentially easier by adding a few more people. But lose one or two and your likely SOL.

    The question is how to you fix this problem without trivializing content? Do you tune raids for 15 players. Allow them to bring 20, and the best can beat it with a great 12? Were not gonna get 40+ man raids again I'm afraid so this problem will keep happening until some measures are taken. This rigid raid setup standard in the MMO genre has not been a good development socially for MMO's. Especially for Guilds.
    Last edited by TheGreatGoogly; 04-25-2011 at 12:49 AM.

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    Plane Touched Asidia's Avatar
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    Well I was thinking (lol) that they should implement a raid/group slider.

    For example, you had all the tanks/healers needed but lacked on 1-2 DPS, you could exit the instance move the slider to what ever amount of people ( going to have to be a min/max value, maybe 14-30?). This slider will base on difficulty, so a reduction of boss health/damage fitting to the amount of people present.
    I liked the concept of LoTRO's 3 mans, DPS tank heal, done.
    Maybe this concept could carry over to T1's/T2's? Say you had both tank/healer and 1 DPS but could not find another 2 DPS ( It happens okay?!), move the slider to 3 and voila an instance with no spamming chat.

    There is probably going to have to be some thinking involved, so people can't just run a 3 man and get insta-epics or plaques etc.. Maybe add a reward system, where you ran a 3 man and the next challenge would to beat the instance with 5,6,7 or even 8 people. 10 plaques for the completion of the T1's and 20 plaques for the completion of T2's.

    Then again, another problem is that, what if there are no tanks or healers? You have a healer but no tank can be found, what could be the solution? Making the boss trivial enough to allow a DPS to tank it? I don't want to find out.

    Maybe it could also give hardcores more of a challenge? Say you had the 20 people for a raid, maybe you could increase it to 25 or even 30 for a real annoyance and challenge.

    I don't know, it's a real touchy feely area. You can only please one side and always try to find that sweet spot in between of too easy or too hard.

    tl;dr : Add a raid/group slider to the amount of people present. 3 people left in your GSB raid? Slide it to 17 and the instance will be tuned for 17 people.

    I don't know, it's just one of my many silly ideas in the morning.
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    Plane Touched
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    Or recruit better raiders and you wont run into problem A ever, and problem B keeps everyone pushing themselves or they can be replaced. Which makes the guild as a whole better

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    Rift Disciple
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    ******ed..
    Galt - 50 Rogue


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    Ascendant -Swag-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asidia View Post
    I don't know, it's just one of my many silly ideas in the morning.
    That would be a catastrophe.
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    Shield of Telara TheGreatGoogly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sempermalum View Post
    Or recruit better raiders and you wont run into problem A ever, and problem B keeps everyone pushing themselves or they can be replaced. Which makes the guild as a whole better
    Cant solve problem A when there isnt a decent pool of recruits in the first place. Or even anyone left to recruit. Maybe i can multi-box and recruit myself a couple times?

    How does sitting outside a raid help someone push themselves? If guess if you mean push= get bored eventually of not raiding, stop playing or find another guild to raid with then yes. I suppose that theory is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGoogly View Post
    Cant solve problem A when there isnt a decent pool of recruits in the first place. Or even anyone left to recruit. Maybe i can multi-box and recruit myself a couple times?

    How does sitting outside a raid help someone push themselves? If guess if you mean push= get bored eventually of not raiding, stop playing or find another guild to raid with then yes. I suppose that theory is correct.
    "i will perform better so that i don't get replaced and try to be more active and contribute more to the guild/raid"

    as oppose to

    "i have enough hit/focus, i dont really need to do decent dps and they can carry me to better gear"

    or

    "our guild doesnt even have 20 people to raid, so i'm guaranteed a spot and have nothin to worry about gettin replaced with better players, so i'm fine the way i am"

  8. #8
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    Lack of flexibility? Are you joking?

    Let's see...how about we examine the roles that can be filled by each class.


    Rogue: Tank, DPS, Support
    Mage: Heals, DPS, Support
    Warrior: Tank, DPS
    Cleric: Tank, DPS, Heals


    Average raid comp:

    2-6 healers
    2-3 tanks
    1-3 Support
    9-15 DPS





    YEAH NO FLEXIBILITY THERE! Honestly, have you even raided in this game?
    Galt - 50 Rogue


  9. #9
    Shield of Telara TheGreatGoogly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneOverX View Post
    Lack of flexibility? Are you joking?

    Let's see...how about we examine the roles that can be filled by each class.


    Rogue: Tank, DPS, Support
    Mage: Heals, DPS, Support
    Warrior: Tank, DPS
    Cleric: Tank, DPS, Heals


    Average raid comp:

    2-6 healers
    2-3 tanks
    1-3 Support
    9-15 DPS





    YEAH NO FLEXIBILITY THERE! Honestly, have you even raided in this game?
    OP was never about the raid class makeup.

    Learn to read.

  10. #10
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    Ah, indeed I did not.


    Well OP, if either of those situations arise and it really creates drama you need to get rid of some people.

    Even the best guilds in the world run into nights where they have too many people (short a man or two they'll still raid) and raiders then figure out amongst themselves who needs what boss and exchanges are made where needed.

    Neither of those things should be a problem if your people have their heads screwed on right.
    Galt - 50 Rogue


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneOverX View Post
    Well OP, if either of those situations arise and it really creates drama you need to get rid of some people.

    Even the best guilds in the world run into nights where they have too many people (short a man or two they'll still raid) and raiders then figure out amongst themselves who needs what boss and exchanges are made where needed.

    Neither of those things should be a problem if your people have their heads screwed on right.
    Agreed...If people are causing drama because they weren't chosen that night/week to raid, well maybe you need new/different members. If you can't find any on your server, merge with a guild that has them or wait for server transfers.

    It really shouldn't be Trion's responsibility to plan for guild drama and/or the inability to get the right amount of players online. There's also 5 and 10 man content if you guys can't get the full 20. I get your point, but at some point it's on the player(s), not the game.
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  12. #12
    Shield of Telara TheGreatGoogly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneOverX View Post
    Ah, indeed I did not.


    Well OP, if either of those situations arise and it really creates drama you need to get rid of some people.

    Even the best guilds in the world run into nights where they have too many people (short a man or two they'll still raid) and raiders then figure out amongst themselves who needs what boss and exchanges are made where needed.

    Neither of those things should be a problem if your people have their heads screwed on right.
    Your perspective is coming from a guild which is arguably one of if not the top raiding guild in the entire US (possibly the world). The options and types of people available to you are rarely an option for the vast majority of other guilds in existence.

    I fully expect the hardcore 0.1% to downplay all problems related to raiding that they do not experience. Thats not anything new to MMO message boards or anything.

    Keep pretending it is because everyone is stupid and inept however. Thats always the case though amirite? Afterall if a guild main tank or Main healer got stuck in traffic and couldnt make the raid. Its clearly because they didnt have their heads screwed on right.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Perros_The_Second's Avatar
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    The best solution that I have seen was Vanguard's 18+6 raid. Group 4 could enter the dungeon but not participate in a 18man event or loot. It was easy to rotate people in and out of the main 3 groups and give all 24 a chance to participate 75% of the time.

    'Of course, Vanguard's implementation was buggy and the system was a result of the game not running well for 24 man raids but it was nevertheless a good system that allowed flexible raid sizes without reducing difficulty at all.
    Last edited by Perros_The_Second; 04-25-2011 at 06:13 PM.

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    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    1-star.

    I prefer not to create or run a guild, but I don't see a problem with getting 20 competent people together who are neither drunk nor watching tv.

    Trion, please don't nerf the level 50 content ... any of it. Teach people to play smarter or at least care a little bit more about what they're doing in game.

    Having said that, I think a 2rd grader has more intelligence and focus than 95% of the people I've met on my server. That's more an indication of the MMO genre vs Rift though. In Rift, you really just need to focus on the game in 7 minute increments and many people fail that requirement and fail it miserably.
    Last edited by HighFive; 04-25-2011 at 09:19 PM.
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    Shield of Telara TheGreatGoogly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
    1-star.

    I prefer not to create or run a guild, but I don't see a problem with getting 20 competent people together who are neither drunk nor watching tv.

    Trion, please don't nerf the level 50 content ... any of it. Teach people to play smarter or at least care a little bit more about what they're doing in game.

    Having said that, I think a 2rd grader has more intelligence and focus than 95% of the people I've met on my server. That's more an indication of the MMO genre vs Rift though. In Rift, you really just need to focus on the game in 7 minute increments and many people fail that requirement and fail it miserably.
    Problem stems from if you didnt move your guild from another game. Setting up a raiding guild here is apparently very difficult.

    Of the 60+ 50's we have recruited since the game went live only 1/3 of them are still active. And not all of those raid or want to raid. Our server really does need some new blood. I'm no fan of server merges but it would help. If the servers had been larger to begin with this may not have been an issue.

    I also agree with just about everything you just said except I think you would be surprised how difficult it can be to get 20 competent and geared people together.

    and sadly a lot of these people I have encountered have little situational awareness and dont pay attention to anything going on. I blame the use of addons like DBM for this mess of unprepared and experienced gamers as they never learned how to raid in the first place without these crutch tools.
    Last edited by TheGreatGoogly; 04-25-2011 at 10:46 PM.

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