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Thread: In Defense of the Dungeon Finder

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default In Defense of the Dungeon Finder

    After all these anti-LFG groups I thought I’d drop one in support of the tool. Rather than follow the example the opponents have set and make a bunch of thinly-veiled insults or ad hominem arguments, I figured I’d set down some reasonable points as to why the game should have such a tool.
    “But Roctod!” you cry. “I think dungeon finder tools murder puppies and set fire to orphanages!” I’m quite sorry to hear that, but with any luck I can engage your critical thinking apparatus. In a worst case scenario, I will at least toast you a marshmallow in front of the smoldering ruins.

    ARGUMENT ONE:
    There goes the neighborhood.
    Somehow there’s this weird impression that a dungeon tool invites all kinds of unseemly folk. I have bad news for you: these people are already on your server! A dungeon finder does not suddenly make people into trolls or ninja looters or whatever. Despite World of Warcraft’s reputation around here, the game’s community isn’t that bad(well ok it can be awful sometimes)*, and a dungeon finder has not increased the number of morons playing the game. In fact, by quickly perusing the realm or battle group forums, you can see there’s not much in the way of ninja complaints Contrast this to six years ago, when WoW was released, and ninja looting was a constant problem. Blizzard has gone to lengths to make it harder to ninja things, and in fact, Trion’s already implemented a similar system which makes it largely useless for some callings/specs to roll on things. You could blacklist people I guess but these are pretty much not going to be seen by anyone unless you post it on the forums and people obsessively check the log every 15 minutes for an update. Even then, people will forget to add a name or it won’t update or people stop posting in it, and nothing of consequence happens because of this precious, coveted list of jerks. Insulting WoW’s system and passing the buck to the player is just a way to mask the simple fact that WoW’s LFG tool functions incredibly well.

    ARGUMENT TWO:
    Those dirty foreigners don't speak our language.
    What? Opponents of an LFG tool have insisted that such a tool dismantles socialization. This is true, I guess, if you’re too terrified to talk to someone from another server. Utilizing the tool actually gives you the chance to talk to even MORE people so I’m afraid I just don’t understand how the socialization is broken. Opponents of LFG have said repeatedly that cross-server groups don’t talk. How can this happen, if they covet socialization so much? Well the simple truth is that it doesn’t happen: people chat, even in cross-server situations, if the honest effort is made. Surprisingly, people respond well to positive reinforcement. I go over this a lot with my brother, who is generally pretty short-tempered and arrogant with pubbies in general. If he would make an effort to use someone’s name instead of “hey mage do this” or use manners, people will respond better. And it’s true. Saying please, thank you, making the effort to use someone’s name, all go a long way to improving the dynamic of a group. Even if you’ll never see or talk to these people again, you’re spending an hour or so with them. Small talk is easy to make if you try, especially if “socialization” is a big reason you picked an MMO to play in the first place.

    ARGUMENT THREE: Honey, the remote is over there and I don’t want to get up.
    The biggest ad hominem I’ve seen so far is proponents of an LFG tool are “too lazy” to get a group. This is so wildly inaccurate I’m not sure where to start. Many people who support LFG actually do so for the exacty opposite reason of laziness: it takes too much effort many times to generate a group. I’ll readily admit in the time I’ve had to play, I’ve only run Iron Tombs once, and it was relatively simple to put the group together. However, it still took about 25 minutes to put the group together and a little over an hour to run the dungeon. Not everyone has 2 hours to sacrifice every time they play, and it sure would be nice to have the dungeon pop in 5 or 10 minutes to get everything rolling. Many people have already said they’ve spent days trying to generate a group with no luck, either due to time constraints or the hours at which they play are off-peak. If there’s one thing supporters of an LFG tool aren’t, it’s lazy. We don’t want to overwork in an attempt to get a group, we want it to be more efficient.

    ARGUMENT FOUR:
    Fast Times at Ridgemont High
    Queue times have been the target of many frustrated players in WoW’s LFG system, and with good reason. Having to wait for 45 minutes to get a group together sure is a terrib-wait a second, now that we’ve got queue times in here, suddenly the time it takes to put together a group sucks! But it didn’t suck before when you had to spam a chat channel? This one makes no sense, I’m afraid. Furthermore, those long long queue times are for DPS classes due to an oversaturation of DPS classes. This might not be such a gross problem in Rift where there’s a smaller playerbase, but the simple truth is that DPS will always always always outnumber tanks and healers. When you have forty billion DPS and a grand total of 5 tanks and 3 healers, DPS has to wait. It’s like that already if someone is building a group and looking for DPS. If you’re 3 seconds late on a whisper because you had to put your soda down, it’s back to square one. At least in an LFG system, you know you’re guaranteed a spot sooner or later. Unless you miss your queue for some reason. Then you’re somebody I make fun of for waiting ten years for your DPS queue and missing it.

    ARGUMENT FIVE: Gosh get a guild and friends, you shmuck.
    Joining a guild and/or playing with friends seems to be a popular counter to the LFG tool, but this one too fails to stand up to scrutinization. The simple fact is that playing with a guild or even friends still might not account for your own play time. If you work late into the evening, then when you get home people in your guild may already be involved in other tasks, leaving not enough to fill your group. And even if you play with friends, having differing work and personal schedules still doesn’t leave 5 people to your beck and call. It doesn’t solve the problem that you might not have friends on during one particular instance, and many guildmates may already be busy.

    Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    The simple fact here is that none of the arguments against an LFG tool have made any reasonable defense of the status quo. Instead of suggesting alternatives or providing methods that are feasible for the entirety of Rift’s population, opponents of the system tend to focus on insulting the players who want it or suggesting things that work only for the person speaking. An LFG tool is a massive benefit to all players, providing more efficient group generation and allowing dungeons to be started much quicker.


    *The game's got 10 million subscribers and probably 7-8 million active players at any given time. When you get that many people combined with anonymity combined with a video game, a lot of them will be immature. Don't fool yourself: if Rift gets to 10 million subscribers, a vast majority will be a bunch of selfish, stupid lunatics.

  2. #2
    Ascendant
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    I would rather see a system like the earlier wow LFG system.

    simply put yourself on a list, add a comment, and people can pop it open, look at whats available and message you. have a dropdown menu that lets them pick 1-2 roles that you can sort by.

    eliminates spamming the channels every minute, lets you continue whatever you were doing, and still only applies to your server.

    sometimes when making a group, we know somebody was asking for a healer spot but lose track of their name in the general chat trolling.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    I would rather see a system like the earlier wow LFG system.

    simply put yourself on a list, add a comment, and people can pop it open, look at whats available and message you. have a dropdown menu that lets them pick 1-2 roles that you can sort by.

    eliminates spamming the channels every minute, lets you continue whatever you were doing, and still only applies to your server.

    sometimes when making a group, we know somebody was asking for a healer spot but lose track of their name in the general chat trolling.
    Did you actually play WoW when that was the extent of the tool? It was worthless. Just as worthless as the world-wide LFG channel, in fact.

    The actual LFD tool was the first real improvement.
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  4. #4
    Champion Carolius's Avatar
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    The only thing that a Dungeon Finder will do for Rift is change the posts from

    'OMFG, gimme a DF nao or I'ma QUIT"

    to

    "OMFG, this warrior ninja's my cloth robe QQQQQ"

    or my personal favorite now after asking for and getting a dps mage with a chloro off spec last night and noticing he as parsing 73 dps and 100ish hps on Falconer/Icetalon and being asked... wtf

    "Dude, I am healing. I can't help it if my only heals are Withering Vines and Bloom every 10 sec."
    Last edited by Carolius; 04-22-2011 at 07:34 AM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Lilisette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    I would rather see a system like the earlier wow LFG system.

    simply put yourself on a list, add a comment, and people can pop it open, look at whats available and message you. have a dropdown menu that lets them pick 1-2 roles that you can sort by.

    eliminates spamming the channels every minute, lets you continue whatever you were doing, and still only applies to your server.

    sometimes when making a group, we know somebody was asking for a healer spot but lose track of their name in the general chat trolling.
    FFXI had this system right from the start and frankly it was useless. If you weren't a FoTM class you would be stuck waiting for hours for a pity invite from friends or guildies.

    I remember waiting for Merit or Nyzul parties on my White Mage. I once went 6 months without a single invite. Abbysea parties were even worse after the level cap went up again and Red Mages were given full on god mode (instead of just being stupidly OP) and were made the only mage any party would ever need.

    All LFG lists do is breed elitism and leave the people who don't play FoTM classes stuck even further behind than normal.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    nice work OP

    +1 for LFD tool, or something that helps facility groups beyond yelling "I'm looking for a group" over and over in channels

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolius View Post
    The only thing that a Dungeon Finder will do for Rift is change the posts from

    'OMFG, gimme a DF nao or I'ma QUIT"

    to

    "OMFG, this warrior ninja's my cloth robe QQQQQ"

    or my personal favorite now after asking for and getting a dps mage with a chloro off spec last night and noticing he as parsing 73 dps and 100ish hps on Falconer/Icetalon and being asked... wtf

    "Dude, I am healing. I can't help it if my only heals are Withering Vines and Bloom every 10 sec."
    People will be bad regardless of a dungeon finder, not because of it. So...this really has nothing to do with a dungeon finder.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander Dastari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    After all these anti-LFG groups I thought I’d drop one in support of the tool. Rather than follow the example the opponents have set and make a bunch of thinly-veiled insults or ad hominem arguments, I figured I’d set down some reasonable points as to why the game should have such a tool.
    “But Roctod!” you cry. “I think dungeon finder tools murder puppies and set fire to orphanages!” I’m quite sorry to hear that, but with any luck I can engage your critical thinking apparatus.
    Oh, this should be good then...


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Insulting WoW’s system and passing the buck to the player is just a way to mask the simple fact that WoW’s LFG tool functions incredibly well.
    Incredibly well at what? Giving players on low pop servers a way to run dungeons? Sure. Removing the need to take the effort to FORM a group and go into the dungeon? Yeah.

    But that's about it. It doesn't reduce queue times, and Blizzard has acknowledged that current wait times are unnacceptable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    What? Opponents of an LFG tool have insisted that such a tool dismantles socialization. This is true, I guess, if you’re too terrified to talk to someone from another server. Utilizing the tool actually gives you the chance to talk to even MORE people so I’m afraid I just don’t understand how the socialization is broken.
    A person you meet once and then never again is not a "friend". Friends and acquaintances are developed over time, usually by you seeing that friend / acquaintance several times. You cannot do this with a cross server dungeon tool where the likelihood of meeting this friendly player again is less than that of being hit by lightning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    The biggest ad hominem I’ve seen so far is proponents of an LFG tool are “too lazy” to get a group. This is so wildly inaccurate I’m not sure where to start. Many people who support LFG actually do so for the exacty opposite reason of laziness: it takes too much effort many times to generate a group.
    It most certainly does not. In any case, the definition of laziness basically is not willing to put even a small effort into getting something done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    I’ll readily admit in the time I’ve had to play, I’ve only run Iron Tombs once, and it was relatively simple to put the group together. However, it still took about 25 minutes to put the group together and a little over an hour to run the dungeon. Not everyone has 2 hours to sacrifice every time they play, and it sure would be nice to have the dungeon pop in 5 or 10 minutes to get everything rolling.
    1. Who said you had to play 2 hours every day? If you cannot afford 2 hours every day, then don't play 2 hours every day.

    2. If you cannot play 2 hours on ANY day, then you'll just have to accept the fact that MMO dungeons aren't for you. I'd LOVE to be raiding in WoW right now, but with university I simply do NOT have the time to commit to even casual weekend raiding. So I don't raid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Many people have already said they’ve spent days trying to generate a group with no luck, either due to time constraints or the hours at which they play are off-peak.
    This is ********. I'm sorry, but that vast majority of players who complain that they spend "days" without being to find groups are players who leveled to 50 within the first few weeks release. If people have so much time on their hands that they can get to 50 within a few weeks, they sure as hell have enough time to spend an hour or two waiting to form a group.

    The other problem was that there are very few players comparatively who were able to level to 50 within the first few weeks of release, thus the dearth of players at 50 and the difficulty in forming groups at 50. Now, though, this doesn't seem to be as much the cast. At least on my realm and in my guild. It will only get better as more and more players hit 50.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    If there’s one thing supporters of an LFG tool aren’t, it’s lazy. We don’t want to overwork in an attempt to get a group, we want it to be more efficient.
    The other reason why so many players have trouble grouping is because most spending their time FINDING groups rather than FORMING groups. If you REALLY wanted to be efficient they'd change the "G" in "LFG" to and "M".



    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Queue times have been the target of many frustrated players in WoW’s LFG system, and with good reason. Having to wait for 45 minutes to get a group together sure is a terrib-wait a second, now that we’ve got queue times in here, suddenly the time it takes to put together a group sucks! But it didn’t suck before when you had to spam a chat channel? This one makes no sense, I’m afraid. Furthermore, those long long queue times are for DPS classes due to an oversaturation of DPS classes. This might not be such a gross problem in Rift where there’s a smaller playerbase, but the simple truth is that DPS will always always always outnumber tanks and healers. When you have forty billion DPS and a grand total of 5 tanks and 3 healers, DPS has to wait. It’s like that already if someone is building a group and looking for DPS. If you’re 3 seconds late on a whisper because you had to put your soda down, it’s back to square one. At least in an LFG system, you know you’re guaranteed a spot sooner or later. Unless you miss your queue for some reason. Then you’re somebody I make fun of for waiting ten years for your DPS queue and missing it.
    So...what's the argument here exactly? That you'll spend as much time in an RDF queue as you will spamming "LFG"? What exactly have you gained then?


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Joining a guild and/or playing with friends seems to be a popular counter to the LFG tool, but this one too fails to stand up to scrutinization. The simple fact is that playing with a guild or even friends still might not account for your own play time.
    This is nonsense. You're not the only player in the world who plays at the time you play in. There are others as well. The point of having an in-server LFD is to meet up with these players. Hell, you might even make friends with some of them! In fact, if you're as nice a guy as you seem, I'll guarantee that you'll make friends this way. And the great thing about these new friends of yours? They'll have the SAME playing hours as you do!


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    The simple fact here is that none of the arguments against an LFG tool have made any reasonable defense of the status quo.
    Sure they have, you just haven't read them because, as you pointed out so succinctly, the vast majority of this debate has been permeated by ad hominems and poor argumentation on both sides.

    Read my post on the Myths and Misconceptions about Cross-Server Dungeon Finder tools.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Instead of suggesting alternatives or providing methods that are feasible for the entirety of Rift’s population, opponents of the system tend to focus on insulting the players who want it or suggesting things that work only for the person speaking. An LFG tool is a massive benefit to all players, providing more efficient group generation and allowing dungeons to be started much quicker.
    I'm not going to defend the jerks and obnoxious players on my side of the argument, but I will say this: almost no one disagrees that an LFD tool is a good idea. The anti-LFG groups are only against a CROSS SERVER LFG. I dont' see why an in-server LFG isn't a good enough compromise for both sides.

    And before anyone says "Boo hoo low pop server", that can be rectified by merging servers or allowing server transfers. Using the LFG to solve low pop issues makes as much sense as amputating your head when you have a headache.
    Last edited by Dastari; 04-23-2011 at 02:05 AM.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Good post. But you lack two things.

    One, you didn't include the arguments that support the idea if a LFD tool.

    And second ... where are the reasonable arguments against it?
    Not only do people really get lazy and it's a pain in the *** to fill up your group with randoms - not because noone isn't interrested, but simply because communicating properly through the chat with people who don't read anything but whispers isn't easy. This gets especially tedious if your guild doesn't even react to the guild chat ... and then the same people tell my group we exclude them, because we always pick people from the same 7-9 player pool.
    As long as everyone starts to use their eyes and fingers again properly a Shard-wide LFD tool isn't necessairy at all ... one that connects more then one shard would be an interesting addition, but maybe people should first learn to communicate. Think of it as a learning experience ... no experts for you as long as you're lazy and ignorant.

    ps: WoW LFG tool is functioning that well, because 5 man content is 100% facerolling. And I'm not a hater ... I still raid in WoW and this is simply a fact. Also it sucks for everyone but tanks and healers ... or people who don't happen to have a tank friend to queues up with you.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Finally some decent discussion. Also I apologize beforehand, I'll probably butcher the quote breaks here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dastari View Post
    Oh, this should be good then...




    Incredibly well at what? Giving players on low pop servers a way to run dungeons? Sure. Removing the need to take the effort to FORM a group and go into the dungeon? Yeah.

    But that's about it. It doesn't reduce queue times, and Blizzard has acknowledged that current wait times are unnacceptable.
    This is fair, queue times are high, but it's due to an oversaturation of DPS. There's not really a way around this, and even without a DF tool the oversaturation means a DPS might still get stuck waiting.




    A person you meet once and then never again is not a "friend". Friends and acquaintances are developed over time, usually by you seeing that friend / acquaintance several times. You cannot do this with a cross server dungeon tool where the likelihood of meeting this friendly player again is less than that of being hit by lightning.
    I don't think anyone aims to befriend every single person they ever meet. Friends and acquaintances are a result of socialization, though; socialization covers a lot more ground than just making friends. You can still make friends or acquaintances even with a dungeon finder.


    It most certainly does not. In any case, the definition of laziness basically is not willing to put even a small effort into getting something done.
    So...what's the argument here exactly? That you'll spend as much time in an RDF queue as you will spamming "LFG"? What exactly have you gained then?
    Rearranging a bit here but I think this is a fair place to bring up the dishwasher analogy I used in another thread. I don't particularly enjoy doing dishes by hand, I think it's a chore and boring. I feel the same way about popping a message into a chat channel when looking to join/create a dungeon group. It's a chore. Now what if I get a dishwashing machine? It doesn't necessarily clean the dishes any faster than I would by hand, but it makes the process much easier. I'm now able to do other things while the dishes clean. Am I now lazy because I use a dishwasher instead of hand cleaning? Same with a dungeon finder. I can join the queue and now I know my turn will come up eventually, and I won't have to stare at a chat channel, fingers crossed I didn't miss a chance or a group member when I look away, let my dog out, get a drink or whatever.


    1. Who said you had to play 2 hours every day? If you cannot afford 2 hours every day, then don't play 2 hours every day.

    2. If you cannot play 2 hours on ANY day, then you'll just have to accept the fact that MMO dungeons aren't for you. I'd LOVE to be raiding in WoW right now, but with university I simply do NOT have the time to commit to even casual weekend raiding. So I don't raid.
    Well these are mostly made up time frames, but the game shouldn't be a chore either way. Someone with a busy schedule deserves just as much opportunity to do dungeons as a dude who works two days a week and has more free time. Rift (and WoW) should be games to relax with, not second jobs that you have to dump 6 hours a day into. As a side note, totally sympathize with the WoW raiding. I'd love to be doing that stuff more often, but my work schedule largely prevents it.

    [/QUOTE]This is ********. I'm sorry, but that vast majority of players who complain that they spend "days" without being to find groups are players who leveled to 50 within the first few weeks release. If people have so much time on their hands that they can get to 50 within a few weeks, they sure as hell have enough time to spend an hour or two waiting to form a group.

    The other problem was that there are very few players comparatively who were able to level to 50 within the first few weeks of release, thus the dearth of players at 50 and the difficulty in forming groups at 50. Now, though, this doesn't seem to be as much the cast. At least on my realm and in my guild. It will only get better as more and more players hit 50.[/QUOTE]

    This is fair. It was a point I could only address through some other people's complaints; an altered work schedule has left me unable to level as quickly as I'd like.


    The other reason why so many players have trouble grouping is because most spending their time FINDING groups rather than FORMING groups. If you REALLY wanted to be efficient they'd change the "G" in "LFG" to and "M".
    I did form the one dungeon I ran and took charge, but it still took nearly half an hour to generate a group. Even if you do take charge, you still have to find other people and that can leave you flustered if you have bad luck with getting more folks.


    [/QUOTE]This is nonsense. You're not the only player in the world who plays at the time you play in. There are others as well. The point of having an in-server LFD is to meet up with these players. Hell, you might even make friends with some of them! In fact, if you're as nice a guy as you seem, I'll guarantee that you'll make friends this way. And the great thing about these new friends of yours? They'll have the SAME playing hours as you do! [/QUOTE]

    No, these are all fair points. I was mostly addressing the fact that I don't find playing with a guild or real-life friends exclusively necessarily the answer since you may not be able to get all your friends together at once or guildmates may be busy already.

    Sure they have, you just haven't read them because, as you pointed out so succinctly, the vast majority of this debate has been permeated by ad hominems and poor argumentation on both sides.

    Read my post on the Myths and Misconceptions about Cross-Server Dungeon Finder tools.
    This was a good read and well-thought out, something I can appreciate. You do make a point here that I do widely agree with, which is server times. I really have no idea why servers aren't divvied up to reflect different time zones.

    I'm not going to defend the jerks and obnoxious players on my side of the argument, but I will say this: almost no one disagrees that an LFD tool is a good idea. The anti-LFG groups are only against a CROSS SERVER LFG. I dont' see why an in-server LFG isn't a good enough compromise for both sides.[/QUOTE

    I'll take either implementation, honestly. Cross server provides larger player pools, and with any luck, shorter queues but this mostly depends on a ratio of tanks to healers to dps, as you mentioned in the other thread. I also don't think cross server breaks a community since outside of dungeons, you still have to interact with other players on your server for things like rifts, raids, trading and crafting. Or even just bumping into the same person out in the world a few times.
    And before anyone says "Boo hoo low pop server", that can be rectified by merging servers or allowing server transfers. Using the LFG to solve low pop issues makes as much sense as amputating your head when you have a headache.[/QUOTE]

    Merging servers does help low pop servers, but server transfers feel like more of a punishment. Free transfers usually only last for a week or so (at least in WoW), then it's time to pay for a transfer. If the guild or friends opt to stick it out but things don't get better, these players now are punished and must pay just to be on a server with enough people to do dungeons. And it may also force them to leave friends they made on the server or leave an atmosphere they enjoy on the server.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander Dastari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    This is fair, queue times are high, but it's due to an oversaturation of DPS. There's not really a way around this, and even without a DF tool the oversaturation means a DPS might still get stuck waiting.
    There isn't THAT much DPS compared to tanks and healers that the queues are so high. The reason the queues are so high is because many tanks and healers have simply gotten fed up with players' attitudes in the RDF and have decided to only do dungeons with their guildmates and friends. And it's not even an issue of "my class can't tank / heal". Go to WarcraftRealms.com and look at class representation; Paladins and Death Knights are among the most popular classes in the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    I don't think anyone aims to befriend every single person they ever meet. Friends and acquaintances are a result of socialization, though; socialization covers a lot more ground than just making friends. You can still make friends or acquaintances even with a dungeon finder.
    I didn't say players aimed to make friends with everyone they meet. The point I was making is that it often happens over time via repeated exposure, something that is so improbable using the RDF that it might as well be impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Rearranging a bit here but I think this is a fair place to bring up the dishwasher analogy I used in another thread. I don't particularly enjoy doing dishes by hand, I think it's a chore and boring. I feel the same way about popping a message into a chat channel when looking to join/create a dungeon group. It's a chore. Now what if I get a dishwashing machine? It doesn't necessarily clean the dishes any faster than I would by hand, but it makes the process much easier. I'm now able to do other things while the dishes clean. Am I now lazy because I use a dishwasher instead of hand cleaning? Same with a dungeon finder. I can join the queue and now I know my turn will come up eventually, and I won't have to stare at a chat channel, fingers crossed I didn't miss a chance or a group member when I look away, let my dog out, get a drink or whatever.
    This analogy really doesn't work, for a couple reasons.

    First, neither using the dishwasher nor doing the dishes by hand requires any amount of teamwork. You've heard the saying "easy come, easy go"? Well, it applies when you group up with other players. If players are required to put effort into forming a group, the chances that they'll stick around and persevere through the dungeon is much higher than if they simply push a button and put their feet up while they let the DF do the work for them. It's one of the reasons why the number of players dropping group skyrocketted when the RDF was added to WoW. Not that this point even matters, because...

    ...Second, I must re-iterate that no one is reasonably against a DF tool that auto groups players together. What the anti-LFG crowd IS against is a CROSS SERVER DF tool. The key feature here were against is that it is CROSS SERVER. The constant bickering over spamming a chat channel vs pushing a button is pretty much pointless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Well these are mostly made up time frames, but the game shouldn't be a chore either way. Someone with a busy schedule deserves just as much opportunity to do dungeons as a dude who works two days a week and has more free time. Rift (and WoW) should be games to relax with, not second jobs that you have to dump 6 hours a day into. As a side note, totally sympathize with the WoW raiding. I'd love to be doing that stuff more often, but my work schedule largely prevents it.
    I'm finding it difficult to see your point when you say things like "dump 6 hour days into it". Where are we supposed to draw the line on what is and what isn't a reasonable amount of time to play the game as a per day average? If someone only has a half-hour to spend playing a game, does that mean everything in the game should be "dumbed down" so that it can be completed in 30 minutes? What if they only have 15 mintues?

    Furthermore, with the upcoming changes to both WoW and Rift, players can do their daily dungeon quests at any given time during the week. They can either do them each day, or they can save them up and do multiple over as many days in a week as they can. This will give tons of flexibility for players with odd schedules and uneven play times to do their "daily" dungeons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    This is fair. It was a point I could only address through some other people's complaints; an altered work schedule has left me unable to level as quickly as I'd like.
    What's your hours / day average in Rift?


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    I did form the one dungeon I ran and took charge, but it still took nearly half an hour to generate a group. Even if you do take charge, you still have to find other people and that can leave you flustered if you have bad luck with getting more folks.
    It's the same half-hour you'd have waited had you used a DF tool, cross-server or otherwise. But again, if this is an argument that you'd rather let the tool do it for you, it's a moot point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    No, these are all fair points. I was mostly addressing the fact that I don't find playing with a guild or real-life friends exclusively necessarily the answer since you may not be able to get all your friends together at once or guildmates may be busy already.
    Yes, but at least you'll have that fewer number of spots to fill. Plus, it's ALWAYS more fun playing with your friends than with strangers. Or, at least, that's how all of us among the anti-CROSS-SERVER DF feel. Again, as I pointed out in my link later on, there literally are many players who couldn't give a **** about others; they see others as nothing more than glorified NPCs who are only there as a necessity for them to get their gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    I'll take either implementation, honestly. Cross server provides larger player pools, and with any luck, shorter queues but this mostly depends on a ratio of tanks to healers to dps, as you mentioned in the other thread. I also don't think cross server breaks a community since outside of dungeons, you still have to interact with other players on your server for things like rifts, raids, trading and crafting. Or even just bumping into the same person out in the world a few times.
    It's not the same; you simply do not make as many friends nearly as quickly.

    It's basically the reason I stopped playing WoW. I came back when Cataclysm was released to find most of my friends had either stopped playing or moved servers. So there I was, practically back to square one, only knowing a few people on the server. I found that every time I logged into WoW I was disappointed if I wasn't able to play with my friends. What frustrated me even more is I was no longer able to make friends like I had. When WotLK (and TBC) were released, I made TONS of friends simply by doing PuGs. The RDF was of absolutely NO USE to me whatsoever. I couldn't make friends with it, and a dungeon that should take an hour at most was taking two plus hours because of how frequently players would drop group and cause me to either wait in queue for a replacement or, worse, start ALL OVER again because everyone had quit. And I say this as a Holy Paladin, who had less than a minute long queues and no trouble whatsoever in healing any of the fights.

    Pro cross-server DF players like to argue that a cross-server DF will reduce queue times, and maybe it might, but on the other hand, they'll just INCREASE the time it takes you to clear a dungeon because everyone will become so "drop" happy that you'll spend all the time you would have spent forming a group instead doing a bunch of false starts and restarts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Merging servers does help low pop servers, but server transfers feel like more of a punishment. Free transfers usually only last for a week or so (at least in WoW), then it's time to pay for a transfer. If the guild or friends opt to stick it out but things don't get better, these players now are punished and must pay just to be on a server with enough people to do dungeons. And it may also force them to leave friends they made on the server or leave an atmosphere they enjoy on the server.
    Well, admittedly, WoW handles free server transfer pretty badly. For one, they tend to give very little warning and players often end up feeling like they have to go now or they miss out; they don't give enough warning for people to plan moves. Also, they almost never stipulate which faction should move, so what ends up happening is players from the lower pop faction end up jumping ship, rather than having players on the other server with a high pop faction migrating, and the disparity just gets worse.
    Last edited by Dastari; 04-23-2011 at 09:33 PM.

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