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Thread: Simple reason why people dont want LFD

  1. #16
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Uh cherry picking is 100% a bad thing.
    So you'd be ok with being placed in a dungeon with a team of 5 dps, no healer, no tank? After all it's wrong to cherry pick right?
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  2. #17
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    What he said.

    Also, i hear a tank with 15 toughness works out real well in a T2.

    Having standards is not elitist, it is a realistic desire to finish the dungeon.

  3. #18
    Ascendant MopDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bejita View Post
    Cherry picking.

    People cant pick and choose what and who comes if they have to use LFD, if they have LFD and try to boot an undiserable theyll just get pissed on and get booted themselves

    They want to control who gets to party, like for example right now most melee warriors and rogues have quit their class and you hardly see any at 50, because simply they cannot get groups because of how gimp they have become thanks to mythic bright wizard lovers going on rampant nerf rampages

    No one wants to bring undesierables along, even if the player of the gimp class is actually really good, they will piss and moan to keep it this way because they want to control who they group with based on the whim of some sicko Trion developer with a twitchy nerf stick

    Dont side with these cherry pickers, let them all group together in their own little guild so we dont gotta live or play with them ever again, GO LFD OR GO HOME
    Simple solution don't use it like you are doing now. People that have standards like this have people to group with and are not crying like You are. I solve problems everyday, just happens yours was the easiest.
    Last edited by MopDaddy; 04-23-2011 at 01:24 AM.
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  4. #19
    Shadowlander
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    Both of these statements miss the point and being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I'll address them anyway and hope that maybe it'll discourage people from being willfully dense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stabsy View Post
    So you'd be ok with being placed in a dungeon with a team of 5 dps, no healer, no tank? After all it's wrong to cherry pick right?
    This isn't the kind of cherry picking we're talking about, and you know it. Additionally, no dungeon finder has ever nor will ever function like this. A group is composed of a tank, healer, and three dps slots. A system will never put 4 dps and a healer together because it's designed to fill the slots, not just mash people together. Furthermore, "meeting game mechanics and filling necessary roles" isn't cherry picking.

    Player A: "LF1M dps [Instance]"
    Player B: "I'll go."
    Player A: "Well your gearscore is 989 instead of 995, and you have a blue weapon. You're not qualified to go."
    Player B: "But...I've done the whole instance with no problem before."
    Player A: "Sorry your gearscore isn't good enough for us."

    This is the kind of cherry picking we were talking about in the first place. This sort of arbitrary metric does lend itself to elitism and only causes frustration for new players, or even veterans who have poor luck with drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sycoman2 View Post
    What he said.

    Also, i hear a tank with 15 toughness works out real well in a T2.

    Having standards is not elitist, it is a realistic desire to finish the dungeon.
    No, having standards isn't elitist. But there's a difference between needing a base stat, and having that base stat but being shut out of an instance because somebody thinks you ought to have 5 more of that stat for no real reason.

    For example, before the last WoW expansion, tanks needed a set Defense rating in order to be uncrittable by bosses in heroics and a slightly higher number for raid bosses. Bringing a tank who doesn't meet a game mechanic standard causes problems. But if that tank does meet those standards and has done the content before, why not bring him? Because somebody pulled him up on a third party web page and concluded that a gearscore of 1000 instead of 1100 isn't enough.

    For all the whining and moaning about how bad WoW is, people here sure are quick to want to repeat the frustrating trends the game has experienced.

  5. #20
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    Both of these statements miss the point and being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I'll address them anyway and hope that maybe it'll discourage people from being willfully dense.



    This isn't the kind of cherry picking we're talking about, and you know it. Additionally, no dungeon finder has ever nor will ever function like this. A group is composed of a tank, healer, and three dps slots. A system will never put 4 dps and a healer together because it's designed to fill the slots, not just mash people together. Furthermore, "meeting game mechanics and filling necessary roles" isn't cherry picking.

    Player A: "LF1M tank [Instance]"
    Player B: "I'll go."
    Player A: "Well your gearscore is 989 instead of 995, and you have a blue weapon. You're not qualified to go."
    Player B: "But...I've done the whole instance with no problem before."
    Player A: "Sorry your gearscore isn't good enough for us."
    Let's make this even less obtuse then.

    Gearscore isn't a stat in Rift, here's it's Toughness, Focus and Hit. I guess spellpower for cleric healers.

    So adapting your example:

    Player A: "LF1M dps [Instance]"
    Player B: "I'll go."
    Player A: "Well your Toughness is 95 instead of 100, and you have a blue weapon. You're not qualified to go."
    Player B: "But...I've done the whole instance with no problem before."
    Player A: "Sorry your Toughness isn't good enough for us."

    I'm fine with that imposition of a standard. The developers themselves have said that 100 Toughness is the intended minimum for T2. I don't want a 4 hour run because someone wants us to carry them.

    I don't mind people being undergeared in a guild run if I know the rest of the group can pick up the slack. But we will see whole groups full of undergeared slackers except the one crucial role you CAN'T complete content with if undergeared - the tank.

    That's why things in WoW have got so bad, the system is FULL of people mooching off the tanks. No wonder in a game where 4/10 classes can tank you don't find any wanting to pug.

    Then too you have the dps roles. Dps is famously the role without responsibility. You KNOW that if there's no restriction people will ding 50 and queue for T2. You've seen this in WoW, where every new 50 dpser queues straight for heroics as soon as they can get high ilvl items to place in their bank.

    Next you seem to think that if the system lets undergeared people in there won't be problems. People will votekick them. And call them names. How is that better than a system that simply places players in content appropriate for their progression?

    A zero hit dps entering a T2 is like a level 9 getting into a Fae run. The other players don't want to feel like they're being forced to boost him.
    Last edited by Stabsy; 04-23-2011 at 05:42 AM.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    This, why should I spend 6 hours in a dungeon carrying subpar people through the content just to "get a team"

    If I wait 30 minutes I could make a team that can get through 3-5 dungeons in the same time frame.

    Sure it means the new or bad players will find it slightly harder to get groups, but new people will have time to finish up getting their gear and bad players will learn that they cannot get away with just spamming the 1 ability they think is fun.
    I 100% agree with everything you just said.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabsy View Post
    Let's make this even less obtuse then.

    Gearscore isn't a stat in Rift, here's it's Toughness, Focus and Hit. I guess spellpower for cleric healers.

    So adapting your example:

    Player A: "LF1M dps [Instance]"
    Player B: "I'll go."
    Player A: "Well your Toughness is 95 instead of 100, and you have a blue weapon. You're not qualified to go."
    Player B: "But...I've done the whole instance with no problem before."
    Player A: "Sorry your Toughness isn't good enough for us."

    I'm fine with that imposition of a standard. The developers themselves have said that 100 Toughness is the intended minimum for T2. I don't want a 4 hour run because someone wants us to carry them.

    I don't mind people being undergeared in a guild run if I know the rest of the group can pick up the slack. But we will see whole groups full of undergeared slackers except the one crucial role you CAN'T complete content with if undergeared - the tank.

    That's why things in WoW have got so bad, the system is FULL of people mooching off the tanks. No wonder in a game where 4/10 classes can tank you don't find any wanting to pug.

    Then too you have the dps roles. Dps is famously the role without responsibility. You KNOW that if there's no restriction people will ding 50 and queue for T2. You've seen this in WoW, where every new 50 dpser queues straight for heroics as soon as they can get high ilvl items to place in their bank.

    Next you seem to think that if the system lets undergeared people in there won't be problems. People will votekick them. And call them names. How is that better than a system that simply places players in content appropriate for their progression?

    A zero hit dps entering a T2 is like a level 9 getting into a Fae run. The other players don't want to feel like they're being forced to boost him.
    You're still being obtuse in that you're engineering scenarios which I already said aren't the same as cherry picking. If the devs say 100 Toughness is what a tank needs for T2, and the tank doesn't have that, it will cause problems. (Of note, I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between 95 and 100 is largely unnoticeable but I can't say that for certain, not having been in the situation). But if a tank does have 100 Toughness and is skipped over because he hasn't done the instance or because someone doesn't like his blue weapon, it creates a catch 22.

    The tank can't get into the instance because people think he's undergeared due to his weapon but the instance has his weapon upgrade. It could be the same for a healer or dps.

    I'm not at all saying that you or me or anybody else should have to carry people through instances, and you know that. I'm saying that cherry picking in the sense where you impose arbitrary standards creates elitism and leaves many new players in the dust. Intentionally not bringing qualified players and choosing to bring instead overqualified players just makes people feel frustrated.

    And while we're at at, how do you feel about new players? If you don't want to carry someone does this mean you won't group with someone who hasn't done the instance before? If they meet the stats requirements but simply haven't done a dungeon, will you pass them up for someone who has done the instance? This is an example of the cherry picking I'm talking about, and it leaves this fresh 50 with a bitter taste in his mouth. How can he get experience to do the dungeon if nobody will take him to the dungeon because they don't want to "carry" him?

    Furthermore, it would be nice if people would accurately reflect WoW's dungeon finder. You can't even queue for heroics as a fresh level 85 because you won't meet the gear restriction unless you have a bunch of crafted or BoE gear chilling in your bank already. The gearscore websites in WotLK were garbage, ilvl restrictions in Cataclysm are garbage. Skill is the divider, not gear.

  8. #23
    Soulwalker Crucias's Avatar
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    Those of us in Oceanic countries need LFD tools to get groups when the server dies at night aka our prime time.

    If you want to cherry pick then continue to advertise as normal. Personally i would like the tool to give a party leader the option to select which classes/roles he/she/it would like. MDPS, RDPS etc and this would depend on what are your most weighted souls.

  9. #24
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roctod View Post
    You're still being obtuse in that you're engineering scenarios which I already said aren't the same as cherry picking. If the devs say 100 Toughness is what a tank needs for T2, and the tank doesn't have that, it will cause problems. (Of note, I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between 95 and 100 is largely unnoticeable but I can't say that for certain, not having been in the situation).


    It's an effort thing. Being able to gear properly, add some runes and spec properly indicates that someone understands basic game mechanics, basic class mechanics and is interested in progressing in the game.

    Gear Score may have been too rigid, but when you're trying to form group quickly, you need to be able to quickly categorize players, quickly judge them and quickly build a group with nothing more than first/basic impressions.

    Really, in the end, guilds are the solution and Trion has done a good job of incentivizing people to form them. Trion has also done a good job of providing group activities, which strengthen the bonds of a guild.

    Imo, the LFG is a step backwards. In one sense, it'll continue to reinforce that good players should form or join already existing guilds. In another sense, all it's going to do is group up all the awful players I see spamming the /Level 50 chat channel looking for groups and reinforce the existing stereotypes.
    Last edited by HighFive; 04-23-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucias View Post
    Those of us in Oceanic countries need LFD tools to get groups when the server dies at night aka our prime time.

    If you want to cherry pick then continue to advertise as normal. Personally i would like the tool to give a party leader the option to select which classes/roles he/she/it would like. MDPS, RDPS etc and this would depend on what are your most weighted souls.
    I highly doubt you'll have any of that control with the lfd tool.

    You'll get the team your given and will probably be locked out of it if you leave because you don't like what it generated for you. At least if they follow the wow recipe...

    Seriously.. so many good games have never needed this... why do people suddenly feel they can't play a game without it choosing their teams for them.

  11. #26
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    People dont want it for Pvp servers because they want to camp dungeon entrances and kill the runners. That is the only excuse I would accept. Everything else is a failed attempt. Let's be honest DF is not going to affect T1 and T2 much. People will rather party with vent users and they will want someone on vent with some experience and gear for those dungeons. What DF will be used for is allowing new players and rerollers to find a group willing to do the earlier instances like normal FC, CC, AP.. I am all in it for that because i need the rep for my rerolls. I wish it was cross shard too! But as for those people wanting to do late game content they will be teamed with other inexperience players and will fail. I think the only solution is to give players a leveling option in dungeons or through rep so they can at least weed out the bad players as time goes by. People who are ranked high in dungeon successes will get partied with other such people. The people who fail the dungeons or leave or just want to be idiots will remain at the low tier.

  12. #27
    Plane Touched Taemien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    I highly doubt you'll have any of that control with the lfd tool.

    You'll get the team your given and will probably be locked out of it if you leave because you don't like what it generated for you. At least if they follow the wow recipe...

    Seriously.. so many good games have never needed this... why do people suddenly feel they can't play a game without it choosing their teams for them.
    Which games are those? The top selling MMOs all had them:

    World of Warcraft, Everquest, Everquest 2, to name a few.


    Back to point of thread...

    Cherry Pickers will still be able to do so by the old fashioned way, so I don't see the issue. Everyone's happy. LFDers will get other LFDers, cherry pickers will get other cherry pickers. I though players liked to play with like minded people? If thats not the case can someone explain to me why it isn't?
    Last edited by Taemien; 04-24-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bejita View Post
    Cherry picking.

    People cant pick and choose what and who comes if they have to use LFD, if they have LFD and try to boot an undiserable theyll just get pissed on and get booted themselves

    They want to control who gets to party, like for example right now most melee warriors and rogues have quit their class and you hardly see any at 50, because simply they cannot get groups because of how gimp they have become thanks to mythic bright wizard lovers going on rampant nerf rampages

    No one wants to bring undesierables along, even if the player of the gimp class is actually really good, they will piss and moan to keep it this way because they want to control who they group with based on the whim of some sicko Trion developer with a twitchy nerf stick

    Dont side with these cherry pickers, let them all group together in their own little guild so we dont gotta live or play with them ever again, GO LFD OR GO HOME

    If it was Mythic, the Pyros AND Rogues would be ridiculous. Oh wait, that will be 1.2. Guess I will play my Cleric until they fix my Warrior.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post


    Really, in the end, guilds are the solution and Trion has done a good job of incentivizing people to form them. Trion has also done a good job of providing group activities, which strengthen the bonds of a guild.

    Imo, the LFG is a step backwards. In one sense, it'll continue to reinforce that good players should form or join already existing guilds. In another sense, all it's going to do is group up all the awful players I see spamming the /Level 50 chat channel looking for groups and reinforce the existing stereotypes.
    Guilds are NOT the solution for everyone. I am busy and dont have time for a guild atm. I am also still deciding what I want to do in RIFT and if I want to stay. Having to stand around spamming for an hour for a simple Dungeon run is ridiculous. And your reasoning for LFG being a "step backwads" is hard to understand. People that want to group with thier guild/friends/etc will always be able to do so. People that dont have access to those things will deal with the LFG (bad players, ninjas, etc.). I see absolutely no reason for anyone that is in a "great" guild to even have to consider using LFG so it makes no difference.

    What LFG WILL do is lessen the power that guilds have. People will have options to get content done without a guild. And I suppose many don't like that idea.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bejita View Post
    Cherry picking.

    People cant pick and choose what and who comes if they have to use LFD, if they have LFD and try to boot an undiserable theyll just get pissed on and get booted themselves

    They want to control who gets to party, like for example right now most melee warriors and rogues have quit their class and you hardly see any at 50, because simply they cannot get groups because of how gimp they have become thanks to mythic bright wizard lovers going on rampant nerf rampages

    No one wants to bring undesierables along, even if the player of the gimp class is actually really good, they will piss and moan to keep it this way because they want to control who they group with based on the whim of some sicko Trion developer with a twitchy nerf stick

    Dont side with these cherry pickers, let them all group together in their own little guild so we dont gotta live or play with them ever again, GO LFD OR GO HOME


    LFD is bad. I'm just glad that I have the communication skills to be in a guild, to have a conversation with that guild, to form groups with guild members, and not have to deal with baddies like yourself.
    Last edited by Walsingham; 04-25-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Insulting Comments

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