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Thread: The Disparity of Riftstalkers Relative to Other Tanks

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default The Disparity of Riftstalkers Relative to Other Tanks

    Before you read, realize that I am a Warrior, I have around 75% Block raid buffed, and tank most of the fights. The ones I don't are due to the fact that Riftstalkers take absurdly less damage for the reasons I'm about to list (specifically on fights where there is a percentage based ability or just a highly damaging attack). Take away from this what you will, and while I do like the idea of different classes being better at certain things the difference is just far and away ridiculous.

    To begin, some personal stories from raiding with my guild. Our current Riftstalker tank (and GM) is an Assassin. That is, he prefers and would rather be playing Assassin. His gear is, for the most part, T2 gear, and his source core is far from good. Conversely, I've been awarded absurd amounts of gear (to elaborate, T3 chest, gloves, shoulders, pants off of Herald Gaurath, Shield off of Hylas, Sword off of Oracle). That said, there are some fights where a Riftstalker, in T2 gear (not even T2 epic gear mind you, he still has a blue or two), takes almost half as much damage from hard hitting abilities as I do, let alone our Justicar (I'll get to the Justicar plight momentarily). Some of these fights include Greenscale (breath hits me for around 3800/tick and is healable, but you'd be ******ed to not use a Riftstalker; breath hits them for 2.2-2.5k), Plutonus (his Thunder Clap hits for around 4.8k on me, around 3.5 on a Riftstalker; his Shocking Cipher hits me for around 8k, around 5k on a Riftstalker) who actually managed to literally one shot me half the time with around 12.5k damage occuring in the same second or within two seconds (Riftstalkers don't die in the same manner), and Herald Gaurath (breath hits me for 5k, hits Riftstalker for 2.2k; again, healable but why wouldn't you use a Riftstalker?)


    The reasons for this Disparity include (assuming Riftstalker/Bard/Ranger; http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...tIuqdRkkR.xb):

    *6% Damage Reduction from Ranger
    *6% Damage Reduction from Riftstalker
    *6% Damage Reduction from Phantom Blow
    *6% Healing from Riftstalker
    *35% Damage Reduction from Rift Guard (more on this later)
    *Scatter to the Shadows (three second immunity on a two minute cooldown)
    *Planar Refuge (30% damage reduction on a two minute cooldown)
    *Guardian Phase (mandatory and essentially irrelevant, brings Endurance and Armor up to tank levels)
    *The fact that Guardian Phase gives additional Resist for no apparent reason
    *10% Health from Bard
    *5% Health from Ranger
    *15% Endurance from Riftstalker
    *6% Endurance from Riftstalker

    Given these things, please understand I'm not asking for Riftstalkers to have their efficacy reduced, I'd simply like to have the two other Callings have comparable ability to reduce damage. To prove a point, I'll start with Cleric.

    Assuming Justicar/Shaman/Druid (http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...RsqeekRR.Mcb.x)
    *15% Damage Reduction from Justicar
    *3% Damage Reduction from Shaman
    *10% Healing from Shaman
    *Resplendent Embrace (50% healing increase on a two minute cooldown)
    *Just Defense (a moderate shield that absorbs about 2500 damage, not sure on the exactly value of this, on a two minute cooldown)
    *Stalwart Citadel (35% of Spell Power converted into Block)
    *Precept of Refuge (20% Block)
    *Devout Deflection (195% of Spell Power converted into Parry; Parry caps at 20%)
    *Mien of Leadership (mandatory and essentially irrelevant; brings Armor and Endurance up to tank levels)
    *5% Endurance from Druid

    As you can see, there are almost no flat percentage decreases. Clerics can Block, but with nowhere near the effectiveness a Warrior does. They can Parry, but that caps at 20%. With 18% Reduction they take the most damage from magic or other high damage abilities out of the three available tanking Callings. Their two minute cooldown (50% healing increase) is utter garbage. It doesn't serve any purpose when bosses like Plutonus are capable of dealing out over 12k damage in one second. Moving on to Warriors (better than Riftstalkers for most things that aren't high magic damage abilities or percentage based damage due to Block)


    Innate problem with any comparison is the fact that Warrior tanking specs are so variable, so I'll only be using the one I use for most bosses (I change specs more often than I care to elaborate). I do use a plethora different specs but due to Ravenous Defense/Void you'd be insane to not have Void Knight.

    Assuming Void Knight/Reaver/Paladin (http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0c...cV0z.xf0VI0V):

    *5% Damage Reduction from Reaver
    *5% Damage Reduction from Catalyze (Assuming target has mana, most do not)
    *9% Spell Damage Reduction from Paladin
    *20% Spell Damage Reduction from Void Knight
    *Additional 20% reduction when a Block occurs from Paladin (note: magic cannot be blocked unless Impassable Guard is used, and then only applies said 20%)
    *50% Strength from Void Knight (assuming pacts are incoming rapidly)
    *50% Armor from Void Knight (puts me up to like 16k armor, lol)
    *Aggressive Block (10% Block)
    *Touch of Life (Full heal on a ten minute cooldown)


    Now, if you note, the first four things I listed for Warriors come to a total of 39% Spell Damage reduction if the boss has mana, 34% if it doesn't. Rift Guard ALONE is 35% Damage Reduction (not Spell Damage, everything), and reduces percentage based abilities as well (Plutonus). Clerics are in the worst situation of all, in that their cooldowns are awful, they have little reduction, Parry caps at 20%, and they can't reach high levels of Block like Warriors can. Now in order to actually have some of the mandatory things from Void Knight I can't pick up things like Impassable Guard from Paladin (all attacks are blocked for 10 seconds), which is the only comparable thing to Rift Guard, except it's on a two minute cooldown. Possible solutions to the absurd disparity between the three would possibly be to make it so magic is blockable, or just remove percentage based abilities from the game and look at the tanking Souls and revise them a great deal. I also left Armor out of this assuming that most are going to be at similar values. That said, let the debate begin.
    Last edited by Entry; 04-19-2011 at 07:44 AM.
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    Rea
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    VKs Void -5-20% spelldmg does not stack with either 9% of reaver or paladin
    pala and reaver do stack to 18%

    which is the mainreason why riftstalker tanks everything so much better
    Quote Originally Posted by Delolith View Post
    A class loosing 1/4 of its DPS is certainly not a nerf

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rea View Post
    VKs Void -5-20% spelldmg does not stack with either 9% of reaver or paladin
    pala and reaver do stack to 18%

    which is the mainreason why riftstalker tanks everything so much better
    What evidence do you have of them not stacking? From my experience they do.
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    Tpz
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    Are you the wonderful Entry i remember?
    Raiding as an Archon, A Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by grunz View Post
    I didn't get to finish my quest before trion changed it, so I opened a ticket and said I accidentally deleted mine

    I got two replacements within a couple days, along with a personal note saying: "Holy Warrior Grunz, use these imbalanced weapons to smite the European scum. They are all bad and incredibly small."

    Recruiting!

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    Telaran
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    Very possibly.
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    Plane Walker
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    It is sad truth that on hardest mobs in this game, warriors are 2ns class tanks. In fact any mob that has meaningfull attacks that can't be blocked *always* favors rogues (I don't have lv50 cleric tank yet so I'm not commenting that), as rogues/warriors are somehow balanced ag. mobs who only have blockable attacks. After all block is our only advantage over rogues who otherwise have better mitigation ag. everything (specially magical, but physical too) and more health. And specially have mitigations from shields, not from armor, which is huge advantage on % based dam (like Cipher on Plutonius) where only shields have meaning and all warrior mitigation is worthless.

    Simple solution to this problem (other then huge nerf to rogues, which could be something Trion should consier *if* they want to make their raid mobs harder to kill) is to make ALL attacks blockable (why can't I hide behind shield when dragon breathes on me? makes no sense) and revamp VK so that it don't require mob to have mana bar (as none of real raid bosses have one, casters or nor). Of course there are individual skills that need be looked too, like now competely worthless Rift Shield. Make it absorb 5,3k non-physical dam like it did before, but only 30% of in time instead of 100% - put it in line with rogues shields.

    Trion really must realise that 95% of people who really wanted to tank rolled warrior. Yet top raid guilds now constantly use riftstalkers (just look ssN videos if you don't belive me), who often don't even want to tank. But hey, warriors are still decent for trash clearing.

    ps. I'm Xanadu's MT, and warrior obviosly. We don't have riftstalker tank at all really as none of our rogues want to do it as main role. So yes I have tanked and killed everything in GS (in 14 pally/26vk/26 reaver btw, which is much better build than one you linked) and Plutonius too. I'm not saying its impossible, just a lot harder. We are currently wiping on Herald as we refuse to exploit and simply can't get it working, partially of course as we do it hard way and use warriors.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
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    I think the point to remember is that Warriors CAN spec to tank this stuff, while not as effective as Riftstalkers, they CAN.

    Justicars can't. We are completely shut out of endgame raiding other then as glorified trash tank. Our physical tanking abilities don't even outshine Warriors/Riftstalkers so much that we are more wanted on physical dmg bosses.

    tl:dr, before you even think of giving anything to Warrior tanks, give Justicars some sweet loving.
    Last edited by hateful; 04-19-2011 at 08:07 AM.

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    Tpz
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    From Alpha on Ysera?
    Raiding as an Archon, A Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by grunz View Post
    I didn't get to finish my quest before trion changed it, so I opened a ticket and said I accidentally deleted mine

    I got two replacements within a couple days, along with a personal note saying: "Holy Warrior Grunz, use these imbalanced weapons to smite the European scum. They are all bad and incredibly small."

    Recruiting!

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    The reasons for this Disparity include (assuming Riftstalker/Bard/Ranger; http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...tIuqdRkkR.xb):
    No one will ever go ranger spec when you can go Blade Dancer gain 10% dodge (passive + false blade) and Evasion (50% dodge for 15 seconds) on a 2 minutes cooldown.

    Also we gain an additional 25% Endurance from improved Guardian Phase.

    They are buffing Void Knights so that you're magic reduction will be closer to the one rogues have. Rogue tanks are just all around better, yes, but by buffing your magic reduction spec, the disparity should be smaller. Both tank should be equivalent. Rogues should not be nerfed. You can block, I can absorb. It is only fair :-P

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpz View Post
    From Alpha on Ysera?
    Yes.

    @Rootzo:

    Yes, people go this spec. Any boss that deals a large amount of damage through non-physical means is much more effectively tanked with an additional 5% health and 6% damage reduction. Mitigation, not avoidance is usually better for learning, and what you're describing is avoidance. Also, I did not neglect Guardian Phase, I listed it and said it was essentially irrelevant due to the fact that brings them up to tanking levels and did not directly contribute to the disparity other than the additional resist arbitrarily attached to the ability.


    @Azzy:

    I'm not going to argue specs with you.
    Last edited by Entry; 04-19-2011 at 08:19 AM.
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  11. #11
    Champion
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    If you get comparable mitigation, can I get some form of self-heals as well as spammable AoE threat that hits more than 8 targets? And maybe a battle rez*?

    My point is, that kind of disparity works both ways according to the strengths of the class/spec. As a Riftstalker, I may have better ways to avoid losing health than a Paladin/Reaver/Void Knight (or whatever combination thereof), but I have next to no way in which I can regain it. I also have a significantly more difficult time establishing and holding AoE threat than either of the other tanking classes in whatever spec.

    A Riftstalker may just straight up be better suited to certain boss fights, but that does not mean a different tank is not viable. On the other hand, a warrior is a superior trash tank, hands down, and I'm betting a Riftstalker is not always the best tank on all boss fights. While a Riftstalker could probably handle the job with a change in strategy, I would only be a viable option while not being the ideal tank for those purposes.

    * In no way claiming I think Justicars have it better. All for Justical buffs.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    I was really feeling just how bad Justicar is yesterday. I'm in mostly raid gear now with stats equal or better than some of our tanks and I'm having trouble not getting killed within seconds tanking Herald adds and had absolutely no chance at tanking the boss (which at the very least a Warrior can do). Not only do we have extremely poor magic mitigation (a paltry 18% as mentioned), but issues holding AoE threat without using an AoE taunt due to an extremely limited ranged frontal AoE and no other means of holding AoE threat aside from spamming AoE heals which is ineffective. I even hate going into a magic heavy Tier 2 like CC, because the magic heavy pulls still do massive damage to me despite far outgearing the Tier 2s.

    I think a lot of the problem with Justicar right now is we are a hybrid of healer and tank. Our heals are simply too good to go into a heavy tanking role. If we get a buff to magic mitigation people will want to use nothing but Justicars to tank instances (we need to keep in mind not everyone is raiding at this point) and Justicars soloing ability would be even more ridiculous as I can already solo multiple elites without issue on one and even some Tier 1 trash.

    We are possibly considering having yet another rogue gear up to tank because even a poorly equipped rogue tank is still better than a Warrior (who is even better than a Justicar)... We tried using a Warrior tank on Plutonus and it was just too difficult to heal through, but with a Riftstalker tank it was a breeze.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucubration View Post
    If you get comparable mitigation, can I get some form of self-heals as well as spammable AoE threat that hits more than 8 targets? And maybe a battle rez*?

    My point is, that kind of disparity works both ways according to the strengths of the class/spec. As a Riftstalker, I may have better ways to avoid losing health than a Paladin/Reaver/Void Knight (or whatever combination thereof), but I have next to no way in which I can regain it. I also have a significantly more difficult time establishing and holding AoE threat than either of the other tanking classes in whatever spec.

    A Riftstalker may just straight up be better suited to certain boss fights, but that does not mean a different tank is not viable. On the other hand, a warrior is a superior trash tank, hands down, and I'm betting a Riftstalker is not always the best tank on all boss fights. While a Riftstalker could probably handle the job with a change in strategy, I would only be a viable option while not being the ideal tank for those purposes.

    * In no way claiming I think Justicars have it better. All for Justical buffs.
    Not sure what self heals you're talking about. My one 10 minute cooldown? AoE threat I agree Riftstalkers are a little weak but ours manages fine with the adds on Alsbeth so I'm not sure. Also, Riftstalkers are the only tanks that are capable of NOT getting one shot on Plutonus. Period. The 12000 damage in one second is just uncounterable unless you're a Riftstalker with Rift Guard.
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    A rogue tank that can't get his buffs up is in for a world of ****. When was the last time your block needed combo points to even use? It's always on. A rogue that can keep their buffs rolling can mitigate a lot, but they also still take a lot more spikey damage as opposed to even damage. You also forget that we have cool downs to help reduce incoming damage... all these things are to make up for the fact that we don't have block.

    You assume that all rogue tanks pick up ranger, they don't, a good number of them run with bard. There are basically two accepted riftstalker builds and another less accepted build. So to suggest that all rogue tanks have this or that would be like saying every warrior tank out there only runs with one build and that no one ever takes any talent other than X, Y, and Z.

    If rogue tanks were such godly animals, then why are we the least preferred AoE tanking class? Every tank has it's strength and weakness, focusing purely on what it does well under certain types of fights and comparing it to another class that isn't as strong under those conditions, is like comparing apples to oranges. You'd just as easily be able to show how a warrior tank is better than a rogue tank under different circumstances. Part of tanking is dealing with the shortcomings. And trust me, there are going to be encounters in which rogue tanks will suffer more than any other tanking class... that's just the way of MMOs.

    All classes of tank should have the tools necessary to get the job done. That's not the same thing as saying all classes of tank should be able to tank each encounter equally as well. Just because its a little harder doesn't mean you aren't capable of doing the job. Your raid may be unwilling to deal with a little more work, but that's not the same thing as not being able to get the job done.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanay View Post
    A rogue tank that can't get his buffs up is in for a world of ****. When was the last time your block needed combo points to even use? It's always on. A rogue that can keep their buffs rolling can mitigate a lot, but they also still take a lot more spikey damage as opposed to even damage. You also forget that we have cool downs to help reduce incoming damage... all these things are to make up for the fact that we don't have block.
    Agreed, that's why I'm not asking for Riftstalkers to get "nerfed".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanay View Post
    You assume that all rogue tanks pick up ranger, they don't, a good number of them run with bard. There are basically two accepted riftstalker builds and another less accepted build. So to suggest that all rogue tanks have this or that would be like saying every warrior tank out there only runs with one build and that no one ever takes any talent other than X, Y, and Z.
    I never said all Riftstalkers use this. I said ASSUMING this build was being used, and on the fights in particular I talk about (Plutonus, Greenscale, Herald), it is by far and away the best spec for that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanay View Post
    If rogue tanks were such godly animals, then why are we the least preferred AoE tanking class? Every tank has it's strength and weakness, focusing purely on what it does well under certain types of fights and comparing it to another class that isn't as strong under those conditions, is like comparing apples to oranges. You'd just as easily be able to show how a warrior tank is better than a rogue tank under different circumstances. Part of tanking is dealing with the shortcomings. And trust me, there are going to be encounters in which rogue tanks will suffer more than any other tanking class... that's just the way of MMOs.
    Like I said, Warriors are better in situations where there is no high damaging spell or percentage based ability (Warmaster, for example). Regardless, one class trivializing an encounter because they can negate a percentage based ability is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanay View Post
    All classes of tank should have the tools necessary to get the job done. That's not the same thing as saying all classes of tank should be able to tank each encounter equally as well. Just because its a little harder doesn't mean you aren't capable of doing the job. Your raid may be unwilling to deal with a little more work, but that's not the same thing as not being able to get the job done.
    Getting one shot is not something that can be overcome with "more work".
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