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Thread: So, who here has noticed...

  1. #1
    Sword of Telara Hrimnir's Avatar
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    Default So, who here has noticed...

    That way WAY too many fights in the dungeons are just shy of impossible if you have melee DPS in your group.

    I love this game, i love the dungeons. But i feel really REALLY bad for people who play MDPS. There are no fights i can think of in game that actually *favor* mdps, at best its either equal for rdps/mdps, or heavily favors rdps to the point of being borderline impossible for mdps.

    There are so many fights where the boss randomly drops some massive assed AOE dmg, which you then have to run out of. Now, for the tank, yeah at 10k hp i can take 2 or 3 hits at 2k dmg each, but for a MDPS you're not only half the HP, but you're getting hit 1.5-2 times as hard. So that AOE that the tank can take 2-3, you're lucky if you can take 2.

    Now, i know you're gonna say "oh, well thats why you have multiple specs" and while that works for rogues. It doesn't for warriors. We have one spec which has any form of ranged DPS, and it certainly isnt enough to be a main contributor in a fight. Now, normally this isnt a problem as most boss fights don't have DPS timers. But many bosses do, and that negates even being able to bring those people in. "Yeah bro, we can't take you because even though you'd be ok on 4 of the bosses, there is one boss that its ****ing impossible with mdps, so, yeah, sorry".
    Last edited by Hrimnir; 04-18-2011 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Jaredwt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zor View Post
    Hello my fellow Rifties. I want to give small preview to some of the planned changes to our Expert dungeons. Note: This is not a complete list there are plenty of other things that should be updated (such as various achievement bug fixes).

    As I've mentioned in an earlier post, we're generally happy with the overall difficulty but will be making a few adjustments for 1.2.
    - Reduced Health on non-boss encounters
    - Caelia the Stormtouched will be modified to be more understandable
    - Gronik's power gain will be nerfed
    - Rictus ground target ability will be nerfed a bit
    - Gatekeeper Kaleida will have the range of some of the crystal abilities reduced and will ignore line of sight
    - Scarn's smouldering bones will stay on fire longer
    - Ice Talon and the Falconer will have their health pools slightly reduced
    - King's Breach Manticores will not instantly use their special abilities
    - Shadehorror Phantasm will no longer spawn minions on pets

    We will also be making some particular changes to make some encounters more melee balanced
    - Ragnoth's whips have reduced range, duration, and effectiveness
    - Fae Lord Twyl will no longer have any 'safe' locations
    - Sparkwing's PBAE will have a reduced range. His chained bolt will now work properly on ranged targets.
    - Konstantin's cleave will no longer be 360 degrees. Players that are in melee range will get a damage bonus.
    - Glubmuk's poison bolt will no longer hit melee.
    - Chillblains' elementals will no longer prefer to spawn on the closest targets
    - Queen Valnara's ground effect she drops on her location will hurt less.
    - Ouldare's special abilities will share a cooldown.
    - Luggodhan's goo will no longer target the tank



    Stickies, good to read sometimes.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara idefiler6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaredwt View Post
    Stickies, good to read sometimes.
    That and don't be a ****ing baddie. All callings have melee and ranged roles. Either you learn to run out of **** properly, or you just go ranged and shut up.
    Kalistrasz
    Level 50 Warrior
    "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general." - Mark Rippetoe

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    That and don't be a ****ing baddie. All callings have melee and ranged roles. Either you learn to run out of **** properly, or you just go ranged and shut up.
    Its not about being good or bad at running out. But since you can't see that for yourself guess it would be pointless to explain.

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    That way WAY too many fights in the dungeons are just shy of impossible if you have melee DPS in your group.

    I love this game, i love the dungeons. But i feel really REALLY bad for people who play MDPS. There are no fights i can think of in game that actually *favor* mdps, at best its either equal for rdps/mdps, or heavily favors rdps to the point of being borderline impossible for mdps.

    There are so many fights where the boss randomly drops some massive assed AOE dmg, which you then have to run out of. Now, for the tank, yeah at 10k hp i can take 2 or 3 hits at 2k dmg each, but for a MDPS you're not only half the HP, but you're getting hit 1.5-2 times as hard. So that AOE that the tank can take 2-3, you're lucky if you can take 2.

    Now, i know you're gonna say "oh, well thats why you have multiple specs" and while that works for rogues. It doesn't for warriors. We have one spec which has any form of ranged DPS, and it certainly isnt enough to be a main contributor in a fight. Now, normally this isnt a problem as most boss fights don't have DPS timers. But many bosses do, and that negates even being able to bring those people in. "Yeah bro, we can't take you because even though you'd be ok on 4 of the bosses, there is one boss that its ****ing impossible with mdps, so, yeah, sorry".
    Melee have to be more on the ball. You also need a main healer + an off healer to get started on tiered content. It's a different game.

    If melee can't get their act together, they should roll a ranged class.
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    That way WAY too many fights in the dungeons are just shy of impossible if you have melee DPS in your group.

    I love this game, i love the dungeons. But i feel really REALLY bad for people who play MDPS. There are no fights i can think of in game that actually *favor* mdps, at best its either equal for rdps/mdps, or heavily favors rdps to the point of being borderline impossible for mdps.

    There are so many fights where the boss randomly drops some massive assed AOE dmg, which you then have to run out of. Now, for the tank, yeah at 10k hp i can take 2 or 3 hits at 2k dmg each, but for a MDPS you're not only half the HP, but you're getting hit 1.5-2 times as hard. So that AOE that the tank can take 2-3, you're lucky if you can take 2.

    Now, i know you're gonna say "oh, well thats why you have multiple specs" and while that works for rogues. It doesn't for warriors. We have one spec which has any form of ranged DPS, and it certainly isnt enough to be a main contributor in a fight. Now, normally this isnt a problem as most boss fights don't have DPS timers. But many bosses do, and that negates even being able to bring those people in. "Yeah bro, we can't take you because even though you'd be ok on 4 of the bosses, there is one boss that its ****ing impossible with mdps, so, yeah, sorry".
    i am a 50 warrior..done all T1 and couple T2 by now..didn't have the slightest problem in any boss so far..
    using a 38RB/28PAR/0REAVER specc, with both melee and ranged rotations..
    bosses with knockback?way of the mountain easymode.. bosses with heavy aoe around them? either be carefull or go ranged with path of the wind/flamespear and path of the hurricane/path of the raptor and SLI/burst finishers for 100% uptime ranged dps..

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    I think the only really terrible melee fight is Konstantin, because of his 360cleave+ground stuff+frontal vastly limiting your movements and forcing a lot of AE heals. Other than that though most of the unavoidable melee damage has intervals long enough that you should get healed via hots/livegiving veil/radiant spores/bard healing. A lot of stuff is hard to avoid but doable though, and a lot of people label these as melee unfriendly.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Let me start by saying that I do agree with your point that melee is generally punished. I don't disagree with that. I do have a few things to say about the post, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    There are no fights i can think of in game that actually *favor* mdps, at best its either equal for rdps/mdps, or heavily favors rdps to the point of being borderline impossible for mdps.
    The main reason for that, I think, is that a ranged dps-class can choose to do their damage in melee range. A mechanic that is already in place to favour melee, charge; Oludare the Firehoof, Caretaker Arcanis, Manticores, Caelia's adds, etc. The range you need to be at, however, is is so long that if there's a problematic charge, the range has the choice to be in melee range. I can't think of any particularly creative ways to make melee dps better in a fight than ranged without giving ranged souls a larger blind spot (which would hardly go over well). The other way is to have melee damage be higher to even out the risk vs reward, but, as I see it, that's more of a balance issue than a problem with the bosses being melee unfriendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    Now, normally this isnt a problem as most boss fights don't have DPS timers. But many bosses do, and that negates even being able to bring those people in.
    I'm sorry, but could you name them? I'm trying to think of some, but I honestly can't. Yes, there are bosses that are very melee unfriendly and yes, there are bosses who have a dps timer. But both? I honestly went through the list of T1 and T2 dungeon bosses to figure out which one I had forgotten about and you might be talking about, but.. the only one that kinda-sorta fits is Shadehorror Phantasm in KB, but I've never heard him talked about as being too hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
    It doesn't for warriors. We have one spec which has any form of ranged DPS, and it certainly isnt enough to be a main contributor in a fight.
    While I don't play a warrior myself, the group I'm regularly in has a warrior whose ~650+ single target ranged dps parses would disagree; ~650 is more than enough for any T1 or T2 fight that is melee unfriendly. This does not make your initial point of bosses being skewed in favour of ranged wrong, but it's not mainly a warrior issue as I feel you're trying to give the impression of.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser spike66's Avatar
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    Zero fights require pure ranged dps. If you think they do, then your strat is bad. Every single boss fight (with the exception of 1 Oracle add) can be done in melee.

  10. #10
    Sword of Telara GoldenArrow's Avatar
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    Rogues/Clerics are supposed to carry a RDPS spec all the time.
    While warriors have the way of godmode which trivialises a lot of the T2 "melee-unfriendly fights".
    Last edited by GoldenArrow; 04-19-2011 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    Warrior with Way of the Mountain > any other DPS in most T1/2 fights.

    Not even joking.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    You are still trying to spam Flamespear?

    if someone dont party you cuz you are a warrior, they dont deserve you.

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