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Thread: Itemization, why is it so bad?

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default Itemization, why is it so bad?

    Ok so even though I'm using a catchy title, I'm gonna try to express my feelings about itemization as objectively as possible. Currently however, it is quite terrible.

    First issue: Hit/Focus

    Only a few slots can have Hit/Focus on it. Which is fine since you get a lot on these slots, so you can get capped easily. The problem is as you progress through raids, you get higher and higher values, such as at some point, you only need SOME of the slots to fill your hit/focus needs. The problem is while in theory that'd mean you could choose your gear and which pieces is gonna have focus and which isn't to maximize stats, ALMOST EVERYTHING HAS HIT/FOCUS. Seriously, I tried finding rings without hit/focus as a DPS caster. See I have 70focus on my weapon, like 40 on my helm, 40ish on my gloves, 50 on my wand so I don't really need much focus at all on other slots. I was lucky to find a solid DPS necklace(from the epic questline) but finding a good ring is almost impossible(and zam didn't help), all of them have massive focus on it. I guess I could try replacing another item, but it's really hard finding any with good stats that doesn't have focus, and severely limits my upgrading option. We killed the first 3 bosses in RoS and I think so far every weapon has been a downgrade because they were loaded with so much hit that no one wanted them. Not even hit+something else in some cases, but just str/agi/end/hit. That's a terrible item and no one is ever gonna use that unless they have a really bad weapon.

    tl;dr: Need more rings/necks/weapons without hit/focus on them, or put other stats on the items so their only stat isn't hit/focus. Crit especially. I'd totally use a ring that had SP/spellcrit/focus on it even if it put me over the focus cap, but atm it's kinda focus+SP or focus+spellcrit and never SP+spellcrit either.


    Second issue: T3 token raid gear

    Now I don't know for other classes and I'm sure some of it is quite good, but as a DPS clerics, there's only one piece worth using in the entire set. As a healer it's also pretty similar. It's also funny because both the healing and DPS sets have mostly the same stats. Why is there no crit on anything but shoulders for the DPS set? Why are the gloves only stats+focus, without even spellpower or spellcrit? I could understand T2 token gear not being very good because it's token gear and all, but T3 is different, it should be better, or at least as good as T2 drops. Currently, it simply is not. Which leads me to the last issue

    tl;dr: Do a pass on raid gear, make sure it's consistent with the role it's expected to fill. Cleric DPS gear should have crit on at least 3pieces, and make sure the healing gear isn't better because it has one less end and one more wisdom(see the chest or legs for that particular example).


    Third and last issue: Gap between raid and T2

    The gap is so small between T2 and T3 that an item that's not perfectly itemized from raids is straight out worse than a T2 well itemized item. By that I simply mean the way item stats weighting is done, which is similar to wow, so the least different stats you have on an item, the smaller the difference is between them and an item with more stats. For example, adding 1point of wisdom from 20 to 21 "costs" a lot more than adding 0 to 10spell crit on an item(random example but the scale should be pretty close to right). That means items which have both spellpower and spellcrit are almost certainly always better than item which only have either. That's discarding the fact crit is such an important DPS stats for clerics(and warriors). Add to that crafted items, on which you can add an augment that increase their stats value a lot especially if you pick a spread out one(so like wisdom+spellcrit), and you get crafted gear that costs like 10plat to make that is better than raid gear by a pretty fair margin. This is not good design at all. The only large upgrades are weapons, and then you still have the first issue on them, or simply weird decisions(PvP Use: effect on the relic staff for example).

    tl;dr: Itemize item better so they have more stats, or rework your weighting. Also bump the "i-lvl" of raid gear a bit, currently the difference isn't big at all.


    I've been raiding since week2 of headstart, and the only worthwhile raid upgrades I got were gloves for more focus(which I don't need anymore) and my weapon. Everything else seems like a sidegrade or minor upgrade, and the only things I'm looking for are a relic mace from Alsbeth and T3 shoulders. For the other slots my crafted, T2 or saga of the endless gear is better. This really doesn't sounds like the way it should be.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Froster's Avatar
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    Your seriously *****ing about hit and focus? Seriously if i put all the gear i had with focus on id be at 361. But yea no not enough focus. I do agree that the t3 is itemized poorly, but some pieces are decent upgrades.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froster View Post
    Your seriously *****ing about hit and focus? Seriously if i put all the gear i had with focus on id be at 361. But yea no not enough focus. I do agree that the t3 is itemized poorly, but some pieces are decent upgrades.
    He said he wants items w/o Focus on them. Learn to read before you criticize.
    Lindane <Fires of Heaven>, Warrior

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    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froster View Post
    Your seriously *****ing about hit and focus? Seriously if i put all the gear i had with focus on id be at 361.
    That was exactly my point. You probably quick read the tl;dr and misread without as with, but yeah I'm actually asking for items WITHOUT these in the slots considering we can get too much atm. I guess once they add Hammerknell it'll be pretty good to have more than 220 though.

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    I agree. Many T2 and raid token gear are side grades. There's no real progression path, especially with the cleric gear.

    I don't mind that expert AP/CC/DSM = T2, but when some T1 ~= T2 ~= Raid, that's a problem. Each tier should have progressively better stats and that's not the case in Rift. I apologize for the reference, but it reminds me of the itemization problems at the beginning of TBC.

    I play for the content, but I'm also disappointed by sloppy design too.
    Last edited by HighFive; 04-18-2011 at 01:47 PM.
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
    "Death to the dragons!" -
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    "I will do my part, but I have no desire to play the hero" -
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    "Death is the best interrupt" - Guildie one night when we were doing expert RD
    Saga of the Endless guide: http://www.unseenagent.net/guides/qu...of-the-endless


  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    The real mystery to me is the stat weighting of physical crit when compared to attack power. Attack power is obviously weighted higher than crit (about double) on items, but is much less effective in comparison (speaking from the PoV of a warrior, though I believe rogues are pretty much the same) point for point.

    Also, how the hell were greater essence numbers determined? 99% of them are just awful, but if we were given access to things like proc rates and internal cooldowns in the item tooltips, maybe we would be able to determine exactly why they're awful, and how awful they are in comparison to other greaters and/or lessers which inevitably end up taking up our greater slots.

  7. #7
    Rea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
    Also, how the hell were greater essence numbers determined? 99% of them are just awful
    6 lesser essences4tw!
    Quote Originally Posted by Delolith View Post
    A class loosing 1/4 of its DPS is certainly not a nerf

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rea View Post
    6 lesser essences4tw!
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
    "Death to the dragons!" -
    Defiant NPCs
    "I will do my part, but I have no desire to play the hero" -
    Kira during Unseen Agent quest chain
    "Death is the best interrupt" - Guildie one night when we were doing expert RD
    Saga of the Endless guide: http://www.unseenagent.net/guides/qu...of-the-endless


  9. #9
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    Why is the blue crafted orichalcum mace better than any tank weapon in T1 and 2? Put the guy who itemized that thing in charge of everything else.
    Last edited by Skagzilla; 04-18-2011 at 11:41 PM.

  10. #10
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    And the upgrade from T1 -> 2 rings being a whopping 3 endurance. How about budgeting some of the useless excessive hit rating that seems to be on everything into block?
    Last edited by Skagzilla; 04-19-2011 at 12:02 AM.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser Slacka's Avatar
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    Have actually been having a discussion about this on our guild forum, figured I may as well paste my comments from that here (apologies for some of this possibly seeming out of context, as it was in response to another member of the guild).


    "To be perfectly honest the odd items are the least of the problems. With the exception of the relic bow from Greenscale there is very little i have actually felt excited about when it comes to raid loot in Rift. T2 to raid gear is such a trivial difference that it mostly doesnt seem worth it, especially the chest and shoulder slots that even if you do win something you wont get to use it as we are forced by the game mechanics to buy multiple t2 versions of the gear for those slots so we can have one with each resist rune on it. (these resist runes REALLY need to work like the CE runes, make them expensive or complicated as hell to craft, by all means, but make them stack with a normal rune so we can actually use some of our decent gear outside of soloing!!!). Add to that the fact the new armor drops in both Greenscale and RoS are all crappy low level skinned and look horrible visually i just dont have any desire to bid any dkp currently.


    Really someone needs to take a long hard look at raid itemisation full stop. Make the progression from T2 to Raid quality clear and obvious. At the moment the difference between T2 and raid doesnt feel like an upgrade, it feels like an alternative, and honestly i think that one of the reasons it feels that way is because in some ways they have kinda screwed up the game's itemisation in general.


    Personally i feel that they have tried to cram far too much into one bracket with the "Epic" loot quality. you start recieving "epic" items early on, and can already reach a full set in tier 1. you then replace that with trivial upgrades in tier 2, and then you wait for an eternity to get the moulds in the raid tier (ok, gloves and i assume boots drop more frequently, but for a 20 man raid with 1 week raid lockouts, the shoulder, chest, leg and helm slots have a 5 month waiting list.) and even then its barely an upgrade, which on certain slots you will never use in an endgame raiding situation anyway for the resists reason I already mentioned. i find it impossible to feel excited about that in the slightest.


    I think what i am trying to get at anyway is that really as the "epic" quality has been so severely devalued due to being spread so thinly, maybe raid loot should all be of "Relic" Quality, and maybe end of zone bosses could drop a "Transcendednt" weapon if they need to particularly stand out, although to be perfectly honest that isnt even really required. Bottom line is give us something to look forward to, strive towards, not just more "purples to replace purples". its hard to get excited about that.


    Just look at other games where raiding is the pinnacle of the gameplay. in EQ2 i remember how excited i was when i got my first fabled item, a set of boots from Darathar. it felt like i had achieved something amazing on that raid and had been rewarded accordingly. if the loot had just been legendary replacing an existing legendary item i am prety sure it wouldnt have felt nearly as big of an achievement. In fact back in EQ2 every time i got a new fabled item to replace the Legendary one in that slot i remember how great it felt, to have a real upgrade, and yes, i know some of that is psychological, but as a hardcore raider I can assure you we all have those "epeen" moments, no matter how much some of us might want to try and deny it.


    Bottom line i guess is that i dont think they will be able to do much at this point to fix itemisation. The big mistake however will be if they continue this trend of epic to replace epic into tier 2 raiding in hammerknell (or wherever raids take us next). i sincerely hope Trion realise the mistake they are currently making with boring and mediocre itemisation and that from T2 onwards raid loot will be of Relic quality."
    Last edited by Slacka; 04-19-2011 at 01:38 AM.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    Aside from weapons, gear seems to have such a minimal impact on character performance in this game I'm completely apathetic about it. Coming from a warrior point of view, I rerolled to join a better raiding guild, hit 50 and got the RD mace one day, then did #1 dps on greenscale the next. Now obviously that was because of balancing issues with BM warriors before changes were made, but the lack of impact that armor has on warrior dps sucks.

    It seems to me that at least mages scale slightly better, but I don't know much outside of my own domain.

    Gear in general just needs to matter more.

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