+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Fights punishing to melee

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    226

    Default Fights punishing to melee

    Trion mentioned they were looking into fights that were inappropriately punishing to melee players shortly before 1.1 and invited feedback. Having been in T1 for a while now, I have some.

    First a general point of philosophy. I think it's okay for certain fights to be more challenging for some configurations than others. But:
    • The proportion of fights that are challenging for X type of build vs. Y should be the same as the reverse. The role system lets you switch which is great, but it's no fun if you're always feeling like you have to switch from melee to ranged and never the other way round.
    • I think extra challenge is fine -- even significant extra challenge -- as long as you either have no choice or are rewarded for choosing the more challenging path.
    • Fine point - having something like a charge that only hits ranged people does NOT balance the fight in favor of ranged, because you can always use ranged abilities from close in (as with Matron Whats-Her-Name in FC). Of course MM's have a min range but it's very short.

    First a list of fights I have seen that I believe should be at least looked at, based on my experience (which is limited to T1 so far):
    • Chillbain (xRotF) - He seems to preferrentially put the DoT beacons on melee range, and the more people are in melee range, the more DoTs stack up around the melee and tank. It's like an exponential effect. The more people, the more DoTs and the more people taking damage from those DoTs transiently as the tank attemps to move Chillbain out the way. Can be avoided with absolutely perfect timing of course, but again -- it's extra challenged that should be rewarded or removed.
    • Konstantin (xKB) - I love this fight in general, but it's tough for melee. For one, even a perfectly-executed melee DPS has to take a break during the AoE phase reducing overall DPS. For another, mistiming = death with very little forgiveness. Again, can be done with perfect timing and a little luck, but you should be compensated for even trying. Right now it's more total DPS for a warrior to switch to a gimped ranged spec on this fight tanking into account his likelihood to die if he goes melee, which seems wrong. At least it's wrong if there's no fights that force mages to melee
    • Manticores (xKB) - This is the one I feel least strongly about and it's the one that's closest to being fine as is. But with all the cleaves going this way and that, again it's just more of a pain for melee which should be accounted for.
    • Emberlord Ereetu (xFoLH) - We have found this fight works okay with 1 maybe 2 melee DPS, but it gets exponentially harder the more melee you use. Very similar to Chillbain but not as heinous. He drops some AoE bad thing on a random person, so more melee = more chance the thing gets dropped in melee range, meaning the tank has to kite more, and you run out of room faster.

    As far as how to handle this, I'd love to see the mechanics not removed entirely.

    For a fight like Konstantin, I think you could have the fight be almost as challenging as it is now by having his AoE phase be a front cone and/or only hit the MT. The main challenge of that fight is the MT kiting without getting stomped, and the spikes. All those are still present if the AoE attack were changed to only hit the tank or be more easily avoidable for non-tanks.

    For Chillbain and Emberlord, maybe you could change the formula you use to pick who to stick the crystal/DoT beacon on to either prefer ranged over non-tank melee, or be based on ground area rather than a straight randomization of part member. Like if you have a bunch of people stacked in melee range, they are "weighted" as a single person (or close) because they are occupying a small area. For Chillbain specifically, possibly only allow him to drop a single beacon in melee range, not one for each person in melee.

    For Manticores, maybe just reduce cleave damage a little and buff damage against the tank to compensate.

    If you want to totally think outside the box, how about these bosses give a buff to melee damage? Or just a PBAOE damage buff with the same radius as their AoE attack? Some reward for "sacking up" and going into melee range even though you don't have to. Note that for a fight like Konstantin or Chillbain, this buff must be always on (not just when the AoE attack is in effect) since their AoE damage is such that you cannot stand in it and must avoid it.
    Last edited by Joehunk; 04-16-2011 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joehunk View Post
    Trion mentioned they were looking into fights that were inappropriately punishing to melee players shortly before 1.1 and invited feedback. Having been in T1 for a while now, I have some.

    First a general point of philosophy. I think it's okay for certain fights to be more challenging for some configurations than others. But:
    • The proportion of fights that are challenging for X type of build vs. Y should be the same as the reverse. The role system lets you switch which is great, but it's no fun if you're always feeling like you have to switch from melee to ranged and never the other way round.
    • I think extra challenge is fine -- even significant extra challenge -- as long as you either have no choice or are rewarded for choosing the more challenging path.
    • Fine point - having something like a charge that only hits ranged people does NOT balance the fight in favor of melee, because you can always use ranged abilities from close in (as with Matron Whats-Her-Name in FC). Of course MM's have a min range but it's very short.

    First a list of fights I have seen that I believe should be at least looked at, based on my experience:
    • Chillbain (xRotF) - He seems to preferrentially put the DoT beacons on melee range, and the more people are in melee range, the more DoTs stack up around the melee and tank. It's like an exponential effect. The more people, the more DoTs and the more people taking damage from those DoTs transiently as the tank attemps to move Chillbain out the way. Can be avoided with absolutely perfect timing of course, but again -- it's extra challenged that should be rewarded or removed.
    • Konstantin (xKB) - I love this fight in general, but it's tough for melee. For one, even a perfectly-executed melee DPS has to take a break during the AoE phase reducing overall DPS. For another, mistiming = death with very little forgiveness. Again, can be done with perfect timing and a little luck, but you should be compensated for even trying. Right now it's more total DPS for a warrior to switch to a gimped ranged spec on this fight tanking into account his likelihood to die if he goes melee, which seems wrong. At least it's wrong if there's no fights that force mages to melee
    • Manticores (xKB) - This is the one I feel least strongly about and it's the one that's closest to being fine as is. But with all the cleaves going this way and that, again it's just more of a pain for melee which should be accounted for.
    • Emberlord Ereetu (xFoLH) - We have found this fight works okay with 1 maybe 2 melee DPS, but it gets exponentially harder the more melee you use. Very similar to Chillbain but not as heinous. He drops some AoE bad thing on a random person, so more melee = more chance the thing gets dropped in melee range, meaning the tank has to kite more, and you run out of room faster.

    As far as how to handle this, I'd love to see the mechanics not removed entirely.

    For a fight like Konstantin, I think you could have the fight be almost as challenging as it is now by having his AoE phase be a front cone and/or only hit the MT. The main challenge of that fight is the MT kiting without getting stomped, and the spikes. All those are still present if the AoE attack were changed to only hit the tank or be more easily avoidable for non-tanks.

    For Chillbain and Emberlord, maybe you could change the formula you use to pick who to stick the crystal/DoT beacon on to either prefer ranged over non-tank melee, or be based on ground area rather than a straight randomization of part member. Like if you have a bunch of people stacked in melee range, they are "weighted" as a single person (or close) because they are occupying a small area. For Chillbain specifically, possibly only allow him to drop a single beacon in melee range, not one for each person in melee.

    For Manticores, maybe just reduce cleave damage a little and buff damage against the tank to compensate.

    If you want to totally think outside the box, how about these bosses give a buff to melee damage? Or just a PBAOE damage buff with the same radius as their AoE attack? Some reward for "sacking up" and going into melee range even though you don't have to. Note that for a fight like Konstantin or Chillbain, this buff must be always on (not just when the AoE attack is in effect) since their AoE damage is such that you cannot stand in it and must avoid it.
    I honestly think the manticores are fine for melee, the cleaves hurt but they are avoidable, and the melee actually avoid the most dangerous mechanic by default, it is actually perferable to be in melee range on this fight. There are much better examples of extrmely melee unfriendly fights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  3. #3
    Telaran Ruxen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    79

    Default

    I'll jump in here and say that Konstantin is fine in his current incarnation with ONE exception - His cleave should not be a 360 degree cleave, it should not hit the bloody melee that're behind him.

    Yes ranged DPS can nuke him during his rage but we're also sliding around to avoid spikes at the same time and the majority of the time the tank will kite him behind a pillar out of our line of sight.
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

  4. #4
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    I honestly think the manticores are fine for melee, the cleaves hurt but they are avoidable, and the melee actually avoid the most dangerous mechanic by default, it is actually perferable to be in melee range on this fight. There are much better examples of extrmely melee unfriendly fights.
    Such as the boss after that, the adds have reactive (i think) aoe that only hits in melee range and will devastate melee.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    226

    Default

    The reason I did not mention Shadehorror is that it's not a great hardship to have to back out of the adds while they are taken down. That's not a DPS race...they don't do much damage to the tank and you can take as long as you want to kill them. If you had a bunch of warriors that only had Flamespear as your DPS (lol) the encounter would only be minimally more annoying.

    Anyway I hoped I made it clear in my post that this is not about who is 1337 enough to do these hard-for-melee encounters from melee. I am sure you guys exist, I bow to your skillz, etc. The point is, 1337-ness aside, some of these fights are harder for melee. Even if you keep them that hard (which is IMO a viable course of action) the extra challenge should be rewarded or at least these fights should be countered by an equal number being punishing to ranged. And once again charge != punishing to ranged. If a mage can avoid a cleave as well as a warrior can, he can gun from melee range on Manticores and avoid the charge too. In my experience it's easier to heal through the charge than a melee guy getting in the wrong place though.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Totek the Ancient is the best example of a "melee-unfriendly" fight in the game.

    If you are ranged? Spank and tank.
    If you are melee? You die.

    'Nuff said.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,096

    Default

    Yeah...
    I've done all T1's as a warrior melee dps, and to this point the only ones I don't bother with meleeing...
    1. Ragnoth - I spend half the fight disarmed, the other half running to the light and back.
    2. Valnarra - This one I tried once as a melee, died I think cause of an unlucky drop of the ground AE... but generally pugs don't let you even try.

    Totek I do as melee because I'm paragon spec'd - but outside of that it is pretty rough for a melee otherwise. Chillbain works fine because I'm the only one meleeing usually in the group - the tank and I have a good system worked out for dropping the elementals off.

    Only T2 I've done is xAP to this point, and I believe that instance is fine for a melee as well.

    I think it's okay if a fight is unfriendly if you had 4 people meleeing it - as it just emphasizes a balanced group makeup. But it should at least allow for 2 1/2 melees to work out no problem.
    Ceribaen, formerly of Nyx (D).
    Now residing on Seastone.

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    767

    Default

    I agree that melee requires more skill. In some specific cases, they're punished pretty badly. However, their higher dps vs ranged does make up for some of that.

    Melee classes, like everyone, also have 4 roles, so that can go ranged for specific fights too.

    The point is to beat the content, not the dps meters/parsers.
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
    "Death to the dragons!" -
    Defiant NPCs
    "I will do my part, but I have no desire to play the hero" -
    Kira during Unseen Agent quest chain
    "Death is the best interrupt" - Guildie one night when we were doing expert RD
    Saga of the Endless guide: http://www.unseenagent.net/guides/qu...of-the-endless


  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
    I agree that melee requires more skill.
    Skill is hardly the issue here.
    "Melee unfriendly" means that melee needs lots of hp and armor in order to stay alive. Iow: only a warrior tank is safe in melee range, and everyone else is better off at long range.

    In some specific cases, they're punished pretty badly. However, their higher dps vs ranged does make up for some of that.
    Melee dps has higher dps than a pyromancer, stormcaller or ranger/marksman? I don't think so.

    Melee classes, like everyone, also have 4 roles, so that can go ranged for specific fights too.
    The only true "melee class" is the -warrior class- which has no ranged dps abilities to speak of. Rogues otoh can do melee dps and ranged dps.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kytrarewn View Post
    Totek the Ancient is the best example of a "melee-unfriendly" fight in the game.

    If you are ranged? Spank and tank.
    Just spank, ranged doesn't tank very well.

    If you are melee? You die.
    Except when you're warrior tank (and have a good healer). Someone has to keep that boss away from the ranged dps and healers, right?
    Last edited by rman; 04-19-2011 at 03:00 AM.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts