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Thread: Bard vs. Chloro for 5 mans

  1. #16
    Sword of Telara GoldenArrow's Avatar
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    For 5-mans bard's best utility is 32 points for full buff rotation, at least 8 points in NB for ranged CC and the rest points in any DPS souls.

    It creates a bard that's efficient buffer/debuffer and still delivering anywhere from 400-500DPS on single target and a lot more on AoE packs.

    Bard's should not heal in 5-mans if you have the possibility to bring a cleric/chloro setup in. However in situations where you need more healing and no cleric/mage offhealer is available you can provide some AoE healing even with 32 pointer bard.

    The common agenda on these forums seems to be that bard must have 51 points in 5-mans which is bs.
    VoV and VoJ are awesome skills for RAIDS but their 5-man effort is rather poor.

    What I've found out during my time in T1's and T2's is that the perfect 5-man setup consists of
    1 MH (Cleric)
    1 OH (Chloromancer/Archon) - Who should have DPS spec for bosses/trash that can be solo healed -
    1 DPS/CC Bard (Buffer/Debuffer/CC & DPS)
    1 Any calling Tank
    1 Any strong single target DPS - Who should have a strong AoE spec aswell -

    With this setup you'll nearly have Raid buffs for 5-mans and you have the capability of having 3 healers if there's something wrong with gear/skills/bosses. Yet you can easily clear trash since you have 2 DPS and still the bard buffs running in every fight. Not to mention you have 1Pre-combat CC and mage can carry a transmogrify. Giving you 2 CC's.

    This said Bard is the worst healer in the game for 5-mans since it lacks dispells/purges/spike healing.

    S.H.O.E trinket from DSM makes bard's decent healers, but expect this to be nerfed in near futue.
    Last edited by GoldenArrow; 04-16-2011 at 10:55 AM.

  2. #17
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenArrow View Post
    For 5-mans bard's best utility is 32 points for full buff rotation, at least 8 points in NB for ranged CC and the rest points in any DPS souls.

    It creates a bard that's efficient buffer/debuffer and still delivering anywhere from 400-500DPS on single target and a lot more on AoE packs.

    Bard's should not heal in 5-mans if you have the possibility to bring a cleric/chloro setup in. However in situations where you need more healing and no cleric/mage offhealer is available you can provide some AoE healing even with 32 pointer bard.

    The common agenda on these forums seems to be that bard must have 51 points in 5-mans which is bs.
    VoV and VoJ are awesome skills for RAIDS but their 5-man effort is rather poor.

    What I've found out during my time in T1's and T2's is that the perfect 5-man setup consists of
    1 MH (Cleric)
    1 OH (Chloromancer/Archon) - Who should have DPS spec for bosses/trash that can be solo healed -
    1 DPS/CC Bard (Buffer/Debuffer/CC & DPS)
    1 Any calling Tank
    1 Any strong single target DPS - Who should have a strong AoE spec aswell -

    With this setup you'll nearly have Raid buffs for 5-mans and you have the capability of having 3 healers if there's something wrong with gear/skills/bosses. Yet you can easily clear trash since you have 2 DPS and still the bard buffs running in every fight. Not to mention you have 1Pre-combat CC and mage can carry a transmogrify. Giving you 2 CC's.

    This said Bard is the worst healer in the game for 5-mans since it lacks dispells/purges/spike healing.

    S.H.O.E trinket from DSM makes bard's decent healers, but expect this to be nerfed in near futue.
    Agreed, bards should not and never will be the healer. We can contribute emergency heals with virtuoso, and/or pump in some dps. I will try a half and half build, I have run a 44 point bard spec before, and it was very weak in the dps side of things, but a strong build over all. I still think tuning cadence to do twice as much damage as healing, and buffing powerchord is beneficial to all bard specs without pushing them into astronomical heights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  3. #18
    Sez
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    A couple things I'm seeing with this thread:

    We know chloro's are better healers than we are, the problem is they are going Part Chloro, and Part Archon, and out performing us healing wise, while having (very close) to the same buffs we do.

    10% vs 13%, 50something + to all stats vs 5% to all stats (Please correct those numbers, I'm estimating)

    The thing is, they don't have to waste time playing Motifs, and they can have all their "Anthem" style buffs up (Except combat run speed)

    So are they a different monster? Or do they out-perform us in every category except combat run speed, energy regen cooldown, and 3% more efficiency?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sez View Post
    A couple things I'm seeing with this thread:

    We know chloro's are better healers than we are, the problem is they are going Part Chloro, and Part Archon, and out performing us healing wise, while having (very close) to the same buffs we do.

    10% vs 13%, 50something + to all stats vs 5% to all stats (Please correct those numbers, I'm estimating)

    The thing is, they don't have to waste time playing Motifs, and they can have all their "Anthem" style buffs up (Except combat run speed)

    So are they a different monster? Or do they out-perform us in every category except combat run speed, energy regen cooldown, and 3% more efficiency?
    Sez you forgot to mention they are also out DPS'ing us in this build.

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haetus View Post
    Chloro is a healing soul, unlinke bard which is a support soul. Archon, however, is also a support soul so you may want to compare archon vs bard
    CHloros get taken as Support Heals for Experts.
    Bards get taken as support.
    You don't want to have 2 Support in the same 5 man.

    Alot of 5 mans want support heals (Especially pug ones) sooo.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfs123 View Post
    CHloros get taken as Support Heals for Experts.
    Bards get taken as support.
    You don't want to have 2 Support in the same 5 man.

    Alot of 5 mans want support heals (Especially pug ones) sooo.
    Exactly. Where as I could see taking healing support, and dps support in the same group, but bards would need to pump out more damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  7. #22
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    Opportunity + Charge + Neddra's + Silence + Vitality all outweigh the benefits of Archon.
    And how does this benefit the entire party? Last i checked it will benefit only the Cloro and not the entire party. In my honest opinion a Cloro/Archon will benefit the party much more in buffs (faster killing speed, less damage on tank, cooldowns etc). I run a Cloro/Archon spec and i heal much easilier then Cloro/Lock.


    Back to topic: I would run any dungeon, with a Cloro/Archon as main heal and a Bard as support. The speed we spend in a dungeon is far less then any combo i tried.

  8. #23
    Sword of Telara GoldenArrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfs123 View Post
    CHloros get taken as Support Heals for Experts.
    Bards get taken as support.
    You don't want to have 2 Support in the same 5 man.

    Alot of 5 mans want support heals (Especially pug ones) sooo.
    This is wrong. Bard should be taken as DPS to groups when talking about 5-mans.
    Mages should have a chloro spec as their offhealer for fights that require more healing/dispelling.
    Trust me, running with a 32p bard you'll be buffing the group for about 100-200dps while giving more heals and survivability to your group. Yet you can still run cadence spam if required for some fights. The fancy part is that these buffs stack with chloro/archon. So if you happend to have Cleric/Mage/Bard you can breeze through the "non-dps race" fights.
    I have no other raw data than total domination with my static guild group, (it's a bad meter though) but here are few builds I suggest.

    1) Marksman/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your BOW has better DPS. (or you prefer Marks ^^)
    - While having full efficiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cbVq0skV.Vhx0h

    2) Saboteur/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your MH has better DPS. (or you prefer Sab ^^)
    - Strong AoE, Possibility of DPSing through major dot during buffing, Full effiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...o.VcbVq0skV.Vh

    Personally I think these builds beat any 51 bard for 5-mans.
    DON'T USE THESE FOR RAID SETUP.
    Last edited by GoldenArrow; 04-16-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  9. #24
    Sez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nysana View Post
    Sez you forgot to mention they are also out DPS'ing us in this build.
    Right, and people are still stuck on the word "support" and what "chloromancers" can do without looking at the bigger picture.

    From what I'm seeing so far, the only thing we have on them is our 51pt verse. They do everything else (dps, buff, and heal) better than us, when they combine chloro with archon.
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  10. #25
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenArrow View Post
    This is wrong. Bard should be taken as DPS to groups when talking about 5-mans.
    Mages should have a chloro spec as their offhealer for fights that require more healing/dispelling.
    Trust me, running with a 32p bard you'll be buffing the group for about 100-200dps while giving more heals and survivability to your group. Yet you can still run cadence spam if required for some fights. The fancy part is that these buffs stack with chloro/archon. So if you happend to have Cleric/Mage/Bard you can breeze through the "non-dps race" fights.
    I have no other raw data than total domination with my static guild group, (it's a bad meter though) but here are few builds I suggest.

    1) Marksman/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your BOW has better DPS. (or you prefer Marks ^^)
    - While having full efficiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cbVq0skV.Vhx0h

    2) Saboteur/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your MH has better DPS. (or you prefer Sab ^^)
    - Strong AoE, Possibility of DPSing through major dot during buffing, Full effiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...o.VcbVq0skV.Vh

    Personally I think these builds beat any 51 bard for 5-mans.
    DON'T USE THESE FOR RAID SETUP.
    I like the gist of your idea, but I prefer 44 point bard for verse of captivation and verse of vitality, and you make both anthems and fanfares stronger without sacrificing elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  11. #26
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    Verse of Captivation is great if there is no other possibe CC, just throw a cast on focus and you can lock a mob down, but very rarely do I ever encounter a situation where that is needed (squirrel or sap pre fight takes care of most CC) and Verse of Vitality gives a small spike to healing, but in my experience you never need it, and in a case you might someone is dying too fast for it to matter. I run bard/sab, mainly because I enjoy the extra utility sab brings to a group (AoE Snare, Single target ranged snare/stun etc.) and spending those extra points from your low 30's to 44 can be better spent to elsewhere.

  12. #27
    Sword of Telara GoldenArrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    I like the gist of your idea, but I prefer 44 point bard for verse of captivation and verse of vitality, and you make both anthems and fanfares stronger without sacrificing elsewhere.
    As you noticed from my example builds you will have top notch buffs at 32 only sacrificing VoV and VoJ of which both are not that useful for 5-man groups. I don't really see much point in going 44 either :J You will not need verse of captivation unless your group isn't on the top of their game.

    I'm leaning towards sab because of Incriminate. It's truly wonderful in some situations

    (especially in pwning that cocky DPS/Healer :>)
    Last edited by GoldenArrow; 04-16-2011 at 08:35 PM.

  13. #28
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    We take a chloro and bard and leave out the cleric.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenArrow View Post
    This is wrong. Bard should be taken as DPS to groups when talking about 5-mans.
    Mages should have a chloro spec as their offhealer for fights that require more healing/dispelling.
    Trust me, running with a 32p bard you'll be buffing the group for about 100-200dps while giving more heals and survivability to your group. Yet you can still run cadence spam if required for some fights. The fancy part is that these buffs stack with chloro/archon. So if you happend to have Cleric/Mage/Bard you can breeze through the "non-dps race" fights.
    I have no other raw data than total domination with my static guild group, (it's a bad meter though) but here are few builds I suggest.

    1) Marksman/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your BOW has better DPS. (or you prefer Marks ^^)
    - While having full efficiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cbVq0skV.Vhx0h

    2) Saboteur/Bard/NB (DPS/Full (de)Buffs/CC) - Use this if your MH has better DPS. (or you prefer Sab ^^)
    - Strong AoE, Possibility of DPSing through major dot during buffing, Full effiency on cadence + coda of restoration
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...o.VcbVq0skV.Vh

    Personally I think these builds beat any 51 bard for 5-mans.
    DON'T USE THESE FOR RAID SETUP.
    Cleric Healer + Chloro Support Healer + tank + 1 DPS + your bard build, you aren't going to be buffing the group near enough dps to compare against bringing a real DPS.

    I love bards and all, but its pretty pointless to have Healer+Chloro+Bard unless its for obscene damage in a 5 man.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfs123 View Post
    Cleric Healer + Chloro Support Healer + tank + 1 DPS + your bard build, you aren't going to be buffing the group near enough dps to compare against bringing a real DPS.

    I love bards and all, but its pretty pointless to have Healer+Chloro+Bard unless its for obscene damage in a 5 man.
    Theres really no reason to bring a cleric+chloro to any instance its generally completely overkill on healing, Chloro+bard brings more buffs and can easily cover all of the healing in any expert. I don't see why anyone would lump a chloro in with a support healer even if they have an archon offspec. The archon/chloro spec can easily sustain the same healing as the chloro/lock spec.
    Last edited by Gumdrawp; 04-16-2011 at 11:52 PM.

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