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Thread: Dungeons Raids, and CC.

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    Default Dungeons Raids, and CC.

    So, from everything i've heard about all the dungeons and raids, theres really no need for any crowd control in any of the dungeons, raids, least of all in the boss encounters.

    Does this mean, all the encounters are pretty much going to fall into the tank and spank, aoe grind feasts, with the occasional "Don't step on that spot!" or "Stay out of the cone!" type scenerios?

    I'd wish a dev (Or someone could point out an encouner, that CC is preferable to just sending another tank and AoE everything) could comment on this to at least put aside the worry that its going to stay a growing trend for the lack of any 'cc' in PvE Duneons and Raids, mostly on the boss encounters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post
    So, from everything i've heard about all the dungeons and raids, theres really no need for any crowd control in any of the dungeons, raids, least of all in the boss encounters.

    Does this mean, all the encounters are pretty much going to fall into the tank and spank, aoe grind feasts, with the occasional "Don't step on that spot!" or "Stay out of the cone!" type scenerios?

    I'd wish a dev (Or someone could point out an encouner, that CC is preferable to just sending another tank and AoE everything) could comment on this to at least put aside the worry that its going to stay a growing trend for the lack of any 'cc' in PvE Duneons and Raids, mostly on the boss encounters.
    i think because of the soul system, the trend was to avoid CC reliant fights. its not like every rogue can sap and every mage sheep like in wow. when you learn the instances you will probably want CC, when you are geared more, you can just aoe your way through to speed things up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post
    So, from everything i've heard about all the dungeons and raids, theres really no need for any crowd control in any of the dungeons, raids, least of all in the boss encounters.

    Does this mean, all the encounters are pretty much going to fall into the tank and spank, aoe grind feasts, with the occasional "Don't step on that spot!" or "Stay out of the cone!" type scenerios?

    I'd wish a dev (Or someone could point out an encouner, that CC is preferable to just sending another tank and AoE everything) could comment on this to at least put aside the worry that its going to stay a growing trend for the lack of any 'cc' in PvE Duneons and Raids, mostly on the boss encounters.
    You can use CC as an excellent strategy for a lot of bosses. Sure, if you're fully geared in t2 and run a group through IT you might be able to get away with a tank/spank but my groups going through expert dungeons usually always use some kind of CC. Makes for less wipes. Check out the expert dungeon guides on riftjunkies, they certainly mention when CC is a great option.

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    CC does not exist in this game outside PvP.

    In PvP the amount of CC is silly. It's one of my biggest complaints about this game, the lack of CC required in PvE and the absurd amount of CC in PvP

    (bluelight your inbox is full !!)
    Last edited by Fiasco3; 04-15-2011 at 05:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecor View Post
    You can use CC as an excellent strategy for a lot of bosses. Sure, if you're fully geared in t2 and run a group through IT you might be able to get away with a tank/spank but my groups going through expert dungeons usually always use some kind of CC. Makes for less wipes. Check out the expert dungeon guides on riftjunkies, they certainly mention when CC is a great option.
    Interesting, From everything I've read, it sounds as if CC is pretty much unused in PvE dungeons or raids that can't be negated from more dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern
    think because of the soul system, the trend was to avoid CC reliant fights. its not like every rogue can sap and every mage sheep like in wow. when you learn the instances you will probably want CC, when you are geared more, you can just aoe your way through to speed things up.
    Well, I'd actually have to counter that.
    Not every SOUL can CC (sap/sheep/iceblock if you want to use WoW refrences, Though I perfer my EQ refrence of Mesmerize :P)
    However, Every Class (Mage/Warrior/Cleric/Rogue) can have 4 Roles, So as with a mage, theres no excuse not to have 1 Healing spec, and 1 DPS spec, So why not a CC spec (even if its just a minor amount)
    Same goes for rogue, with the addition of Tank, Not sure what Clerics/Warriors got for 'cc' but I doubt its as full as rogue/Mage does.

    I don't know about you, but quite honestly, I thought in the WoW case, the 15 minute aoe dungeon tank and spank grind feasts were incredibly boring.
    There was no real 'thought' behind it, the encounters were piss easy. And any 'trick' to make the encounter easier (don't step there, move out of that, stun here, ect) is easilly countered with...
    Moooooore DPSsssss.

    I really think its possible to make encounters where CC is required, Just like its possible to make encounters where an Extra Tank is required, Or an extra Healer isr required, or even an Extra DPS is required. Alot of people cite, that if they allow CC in Raid/Dungeon encounters (specifcially boss fights) It will trivilize, and I have to say thats a whole case of bullocks. If a fight is 'designed' with CC in mind, it does not trivilize it. Nor does it mean instant win. No more than simply adding another 'tank' or another 'dps' or another 'healer' makes the fight 'trivilized' and 'instant loot'.

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    CC is useful to have but not a necessity.

    Some fights you want a certain mob out the way while you take care of others, or perhaps an add wandered too close and you don't want to deal with it, those are the times I've used CC.

    Unfortunately with the general amounts of stuff you have to fight in a single trash battle CC often just prevents the use of AoEs that either speed things up or keep everyone safe (hate people CCing when Im trying to aoe taunt...)

    I've not actually encountered any boss fights where any form of CC would be useful even if you could use it on em, either adds are so many that 1 less is going to be pointless or their the targets you need to get down fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiasco3 View Post
    CC does not exist in this game outside PvP.

    In PvP the amount of CC is silly. It's one of my biggest complaints about this game, the lack of CC required in PvE and the absurd amount of CC in PvP

    (bluelight your inbox is full !!)
    LOL How did you know I would read this!?!? It's emptied. So I am not trolling too much, it would be nice if a couple boss fights benefited from CC but as it is I don't see that happening.

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    CC should be needed in all dungeons.... **** they should be harder in general. I'm not gonna go as far back as EQ or etc... As even WoW had a need for CC back before Burning Crusade. i remember doing Scholo or Dire Maul at level 56-58 with some blues and mostly greens. every fight had to be planned, and there were a good 6 to 15 boss per dungeon...

    I miss long dungeons... Rift is a great game... but its all too ****ing short...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrain View Post
    CC should be needed in all dungeons.... **** they should be harder in general. I'm not gonna go as far back as EQ or etc... As even WoW had a need for CC back before Burning Crusade. i remember doing Scholo or Dire Maul at level 56-58 with some blues and mostly greens. every fight had to be planned, and there were a good 6 to 15 boss per dungeon...

    I miss long dungeons... Rift is a great game... but its all too ****ing short...
    Burning Crusade, There were encounters that it was imposisble (at the beginning, pre-Lich King it became negligiable) you had to CC several mobs in certain encounters, else the fight became far, far harder.
    Having 4 tanks wasn't an option, and the healers couldn't out-heal 3 mobs on 1 guy, and 1 on the other, nor did you have the possibility of 'interupting' certain mobs 'heals', ect, ect.

    After various patches on that front, and lich king on the horizon, It went down hill (even further) into just AoE Tank and Spanks with little to any real strategy involved.

    On the EQ front, I recall a Raid Encounter, that involved the raid to splt up into something like 4 or 8 'teams' each at a 'spot' or 'camp', Each camp would have an Enchanter(x2?) (CC class) And He would Hold one or more mobs down, while that team, took down the 'adds', one at a time. You may ask... why not just AoE them to death?

    Tanks could hold agro over AoE dmg, Nor could they take a beating from 10 mobs.

    I recall, from WoW an encounter, where, if you killed one of the spawned adds, The Main Boss would just instnat rez it.
    If you kept that mob up, it would heal the boss.
    And since interupts were to risky (and had cooldown, and due to the limit of people in the raid, doing interupt cycles wasn't to much of an option)

    In Conan, They had an encounter (raid) Where it was preferable to CC certain Mobs than it was to actually kill them, not necisarrilly through the entire encounter, but simply becuase it prevented your tanks or your DPS dieing due to to much agro/hits. (The mobs would pretty much 1-2-shot casters/rogues)

    Sometimes Going fast isn't as enjoyable, as working out strategies besides brainless 'zergs'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post

    I recall, from WoW an encounter, where, if you killed one of the spawned adds, The Main Boss would just instnat rez it.
    If you kept that mob up, it would heal the boss.
    And since interupts were to risky (and had cooldown, and due to the limit of people in the raid, doing interupt cycles wasn't to much of an option)


    Sometimes Going fast isn't as enjoyable, as working out strategies besides brainless 'zergs'.
    see on one had you say working out strategies, calling aoeing brainless but this is a perfect example of brainless dungeon design.

    they basically said, hmm ppl dont use CC, lets design an encounter where you have to CC! thats entirely unimaginative. theres no strategy here, theres only 1 way to do it and its only there to validate a part of game design that doesnt even need to be there. CC isnt fun for 95% of the people. the tank gets nervous cause he doesnt want to break cc, some moron dpser always breaks it and you all sit around and argue who broke the cc yadda yadda.

    your scenario reminds me of a instance in lotro where there was a goblin (the boss) and 2 troll adds. if the trolls got together everything healed up. naturally CC was the preferred method to deal with this, you CCed the trolls on opposite parts of the platform and killed the boss BUT there were only 2 classes in the game that could perma CC something. so if you didnt have one of them it would have been impossible to complete the instance or you would have to refuse player after player spamming LFG for 1 specific class. there was however more than one way to do this, you could also have an OT keep one troll busy on one side while the MT kept the boss and other troll busy on the other. same concept, multiple ways to complete it.

    in RIFT if your going into an expert dungeon say IT or FC as a fresh 50, no expert gear yet, tanks are going to get hit hard. its advisable to CC some of the hard hitting mobs to make life on the healers alot easier. maybe you want to CC the random PAT in kings breach, sure why not... but dont make me. once your geared up theres no reason why you shouldnt be able to AOE smash stuff.. you outgear the instance. what makes instances fun once you mostly outgear them is by seeing how much you can pull at once, see how fast you can clear it whatever, it keeps it exciting.

    theres no reason CC shouild be required. maybe you have an extra healer to help with the damage, maybe you have a debuffer who can help lessen the hits. maybe a OT to take the pressure off the MT. dont force people to play a certian way come up with challenging encounters and watch different ways people come up with to counter them.
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    see on one had you say working out strategies, calling aoeing brainless but this is a perfect example of brainless dungeon design.

    they basically said, hmm ppl dont use CC, lets design an encounter where you have to CC! thats entirely unimaginative. theres no strategy here, theres only 1 way to do it and its only there to validate a part of game design that doesnt even need to be there. CC isnt fun for 95% of the people. the tank gets nervous cause he doesnt want to break cc, some moron dpser always breaks it and you all sit around and argue who broke the cc yadda yadda.
    Theres a difference between creating an encounter that REQURIES CC, and one that takes CC in MIND.

    your scenario reminds me of a instance in lotro where there was a goblin (the boss) and 2 troll adds. if the trolls got together everything healed up. naturally CC was the preferred method to deal with this, you CCed the trolls on opposite parts of the platform and killed the boss BUT there were only 2 classes in the game that could perma CC something. so if you didnt have one of them it would have been impossible to complete the instance or you would have to refuse player after player spamming LFG for 1 specific class. there was however more than one way to do this, you could also have an OT keep one troll busy on one side while the MT kept the boss and other troll busy on the other. same concept, multiple ways to complete it.
    Tell me, the first time you engaged that encounter, Did you go in, knowing already what was required? Or did you have to learn it yourself?

    Learn it your self?
    Okay, Was it more challanging?
    How did it feel the first time you beat it?
    That you actually accomplished something?
    SWEET!

    Read about it?
    Where was the challange/accomplishment?
    Oh, you had to spend 30 minutes going LF-CC!!!!!! NOW!

    I used to LFG - Anything for 4 hours in EQ just to get a 2 hour group-grind session on.
    When you leveled, It was an accomplishment. When you defeated a dungeon/encounter, it was an accomplishment.

    When every fight is basically the same, Thats not accomplishment. A dungeon that takes 20 minutes, is not fun, nor is it realy a real accomplishment.


    in RIFT if your going into an expert dungeon say IT or FC as a fresh 50, no expert gear yet, tanks are going to get hit hard. its advisable to CC some of the hard hitting mobs to make life on the healers alot easier. maybe you want to CC the random PAT in kings breach, sure why not... but dont make me. once your geared up theres no reason why you shouldnt be able to AOE smash stuff.. you outgear the instance. what makes instances fun once you mostly outgear them is by seeing how much you can pull at once, see how fast you can clear it whatever, it keeps it exciting.
    The only people, who maintain doing old content to smash it, is to help newer guildies, get the gear, to attend the higher-end raid/dungeon content, where in-there you spend time, learning the new encounters.

    Tell me, did you have more fun grind-feasting allt hose elite dungeons, or do you have more fun, attempting end-game raids with there varrying raid-content and encounters?

    theres no reason CC shouild be required. maybe you have an extra healer to help with the damage, maybe you have a debuffer who can help lessen the hits. maybe a OT to take the pressure off the MT. dont force people to play a certian way come up with challenging encounters and watch different ways people come up with to counter them
    Your to hung up on the required part.
    It doesn't NEED to be required, but it should be Useful to bring along. You take out CC from Dungeons, Raids...

    Why should it even WORK in pve in the first place?
    You have a mechanic.
    USE it.

    ANd you can't just complain that
    'oooh but what if we can't find a CC'er?'

    This is Rift, you can have 4 roles, 4 specs, you can respec just as easilly, how hard is it, NOT to have one 'soul' that is there, simply for the CC? Just as it is, to have one thats there purely for the healing, or the DPS, the off tank, the magic tank, ect ect ect?

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    i think rift has more ability to throw in CC fights than wow did.

    because everyone can have a CC class.

    so you dont get something like this:
    a good example in WoW...the priestess chick in magisters terrace, you know, that fight where it was like playing an arena match against players that were immune to taunt and you had to win with CC?
    that fight was cool but also sucked...why did it suck? because you basically HAD to bring AT LEAST one mage no matter what(limiting your options) because sheep was basically the only way to complete that fight. and while you are at it, both of the other dps classes should have CC as well, leaving dps warriors, retadins, shamans and druids more or less out of the running for dps slots. even rogues werent a great choice because sap had a time limit.

    if that fight was in rift, nobody would really have to be left out(and you are almost guaranteed to have one of each base calling, compared to the pool of wow classes)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post
    Theres a difference between creating an encounter that REQURIES CC, and one that takes CC in MIND.



    Tell me, the first time you engaged that encounter, Did you go in, knowing already what was required? Or did you have to learn it yourself?

    Learn it your self?
    Okay, Was it more challanging?
    How did it feel the first time you beat it?
    That you actually accomplished something?
    SWEET!

    Read about it?
    Where was the challange/accomplishment?
    Oh, you had to spend 30 minutes going LF-CC!!!!!! NOW!

    I used to LFG - Anything for 4 hours in EQ just to get a 2 hour group-grind session on.
    When you leveled, It was an accomplishment. When you defeated a dungeon/encounter, it was an accomplishment.

    When every fight is basically the same, Thats not accomplishment. A dungeon that takes 20 minutes, is not fun, nor is it realy a real accomplishment.




    The only people, who maintain doing old content to smash it, is to help newer guildies, get the gear, to attend the higher-end raid/dungeon content, where in-there you spend time, learning the new encounters.

    Tell me, did you have more fun grind-feasting allt hose elite dungeons, or do you have more fun, attempting end-game raids with there varrying raid-content and encounters?



    Your to hung up on the required part.
    It doesn't NEED to be required, but it should be Useful to bring along. You take out CC from Dungeons, Raids...

    Why should it even WORK in pve in the first place?
    You have a mechanic.
    USE it.

    ANd you can't just complain that
    'oooh but what if we can't find a CC'er?'

    This is Rift, you can have 4 roles, 4 specs, you can respec just as easilly, how hard is it, NOT to have one 'soul' that is there, simply for the CC? Just as it is, to have one thats there purely for the healing, or the DPS, the off tank, the magic tank, ect ect ect?
    i was saying that in lotro there were only 2 classes that could perma CC something... and they werent common classes it would have been no fun if we had to sit around and wait for one to show up. fortunatly there were alternate ways it could be done, there were a bunch of classes that could off tank.

    i like the way CC is in rift now, your not forced to use it, but its there if you want to help out. i dont want CC to be mandatory.
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    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    There are a lot of very biased and very narrow views here from people that are either trolling or very over geared for the T1/T2 content.

    When you first start the T1/T2 content, CC is a huge part of being successful. When you're slightly under geared or even at the appropriate gear level, sapping or polying larger mobs like the pathers in expert RD, AP or CC can be a big help to both the tank and healer.

    I was in a group last night that went all aoe on expert CC and burned through it, but that's because everyone was over geared for the content.
    Last edited by HighFive; 04-18-2011 at 02:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    i think because of the soul system, the trend was to avoid CC reliant fights. its not like every rogue can sap and every mage sheep like in wow. when you learn the instances you will probably want CC, when you are geared more, you can just aoe your way through to speed things up.
    I don't see how the soul system stops mages from polymorphing or rogues from sapping. They have 4 roles, is it unreasonable to ask one or two of the people in a 20 man raid to incorporate a low level ability in one of their 4 roles?
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