+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Let's help Trion design a single server LFD tool.

  1. #1
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    482

    Default Let's help Trion design a single server LFD tool.

    It seems pretty much set in stone now that some kind of LFD tool is coming. However WoW's innovative approach seems to have been a flawed one (they're even having to bribe people to tank their horrible pugs now!).

    Let's put our heads together and offer suggestions on how to design a tool for putting people who want to do dungeons in touch with other people who want to do them.

    First some design principles:

    - we want to discourage arsehattery.

    - I don't want to have to keep spamming a message or checking a channel during the period it takes for a group to form.

    - it would be nice to have some way to indicate a preference for playing with a friend or a guildie (possibly at the expense of a slightly longer wait).

    - we don't want to be locked in to a Tank + 3 dps + Healer set up like WoW's players.

    - we don't want to put all of the responsibility for a run going smoothly on the shoulders of one person (eg the Tank).


    So here's some ideas:

    Arsehattery: the key to controlling poor behaviour by the tiny minority who do it (and even in WoW it's a tiny proportion) is the ability to prevent that person participating in future runs. I'd suggest Account Ignores. If you were rude grabby and impatient on your Rogue I doubt you're a different person on your Cleric.

    Sometimes what is perceived as arsehattery is just miscommunication so an improvement of the game's grouping tools, particularly the marking tools would be welcome. I'd like to be able to configure my marks so that alt 1 is Kill This First (or Skull), alt 2 Patrol, leave it alone alt 3 is CC all in different colours of my choosing.

    I would also like a larger macro library with folders so I could call up the Foul Cascade folder and hit the Countess Surin explanation macro.

    Passive queueing - when my group's ready give me a pop-up, until then leave me to play in peace. I would love to be able to warfront while queued but I do see that's a bit unfair on the others in the warfront.

    Preferences - I'm thinking boxes you can check for Wait Longer if there's a suitable guildie/friend also queued. Suppose I'm queued as a Healer and there are 8 dps in the queue. Dps number #6 is a guildie. There's plenty of healers also in the queue and I'm first and everyone is waiting for tanks. Let's say for this example that groups are 1 tank 2 healers/offhealers, 2 dps.
    First tank comes along - if I didn't check the box I get into this group. But I did so I pass up my place in the line for other healers and my dps guildie moves up to #4 in line. Next tank comes, I again pass, my dps guildie moves up to #2. Next tank comes, I get into the group and so does my guildie.

    I'd really like to see this implemented. Wow's system only allows you to automate dislikes, let's promote a bit of liking people!

    Of course another day I might be pressed for time so I don't tick the box and get in as fast as possible. Also if my guildie leaves the queue it needs to check that and realise there's no longer any need to hold me back.


    Group composition: I'd like the ability to design my group from presets and have the LFD fill it. So I could decide that T2 DSM really needs a healer and 2 offhealers and put my group into the queue unless someone already queued for DSM and designed a group first. I'd also like to be able to set a default comp (for example tank, healer, offhealer, 2 dps).

    We CAN'T have a LFD tool based on a standard setup like 3 dps. Very few people will want to solo heal 4 randoms in an expert. We would end up telling the dps to roll, lowest heals. Or gets votekicked. Which would suck. (Example of arsehattery built into the system).


    Which leads me on neatly to the biggest problem with WoW's LFD:

    Responsibility. It's hard to put a finger on quite why WoW has developed a culture where the tank is expected to have better gear than everyone else, know the dungeon better than everyone else and bear the responsibility for anything that goes wrong but it's quite quite poisonous and I believe we will see WoW gradually decline because of this.
    Some examples: threat was buffed so much on tanks that dps didn't have to restrain themselves ever. (The old WoW famously made players "wait for 3 Sunders"). This created a new breed of dpsers who believed (with some justification) that the tank was a noob or slacking if they ripped aggro, eventually leading to the situation where as a tank you have to fight against your group to not have them mess up your pulls (and line of sight pulls are out of the question).

    Rift has not designed responsibility out of the dps role, it's vital that this stays a feature of Rift once we have LFD dungeon runs.


    Any more thoughts on what specifically we want in our LFD tool?
    Last edited by Stabsy; 04-12-2011 at 06:44 PM.
    Guild Leader of Serenity on Bloodiron EU PvP
    I blog at http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Fiasco3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    I really don't think they need a pop-up que LFD tool at all.

    Just give us an lfg system where we can flag ourselves as lfg, throw in a comment of what we're looking for, and the role we would prefer to play.

    this would make it easier to start forming groups and you would know who to send a tell to. Right now it's just looking at everyone online in your level range, and sending them a tell hoping they might want to join your pug, and crossing your fingers hoping they are willing to play the role you want.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    480

    Default

    They have a system in the works. They are going for a typical LFG system to start. This will allow players to flag them selves LFG with a little description and people can go and pick what they want/need for a group. This is all that is needed. Having a queue and automaticaly being ported to the dungeon begins to trivialize the who MMO desing of travel/exploration and socializing. Most dungeons have a porticulum close enough where travel time is minimal anyways. One thing that would be nice is an LFG profile. So in game I can just type /lfg and it will post me as Lvl X <Calling> <ROLES> <DUNGEON/QUEST> or what ever I set it to.

    Players pose the arguement that if you don't like it don't use. In the end if you have a choice betwen a bicycle or a car to get to work, you will take the car even though you know its bad for the enviorment.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiasco3 View Post
    I really don't think they need a pop-up que LFD tool at all.

    Just give us an lfg system where we can flag ourselves as lfg, throw in a comment of what we're looking for, and the role we would prefer to play.

    this would make it easier to start forming groups and you would know who to send a tell to. Right now it's just looking at everyone online in your level range, and sending them a tell hoping they might want to join your pug, and crossing your fingers hoping they are willing to play the role you want.
    OK, this sounds a bit like the Everquest 2 system.

    The problem I had with that is that most people don't flag themselves. I quite often put groups together by spamming channels and sending whispers to every appropriate level person when there was no one in the tool flagged as willing to do that dungeon.

    At least if Trion do implement a system like this the minimum I would like is for it to save my settings when I log off. So if my level 22 Warrior is looking for DD as Tank or Dps I don't have to remember to queue next time I play.

    I think in EQ2 it isn't that people are unwilling to do group content it is simply that most people don't remember to set up their LFG status when they play.
    Last edited by Stabsy; 04-12-2011 at 07:15 PM.
    Guild Leader of Serenity on Bloodiron EU PvP
    I blog at http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SvnStrSlm View Post
    Players pose the arguement that if you don't like it don't use. In the end if you have a choice betwen a bicycle or a car to get to work, you will take the car even though you know its bad for the enviorment.
    Or, you know, Trion could just design an Electric Car that doesn't harm the environment. Isn't that what this thread is all about?

    Besides, Scott Hartsman has already said in MANY interviews that he has implemented LFG tools in other games and people simply didn't use them. I'm paraphrasing, but he said it's either something that automatically groups people or nothing at all.

    People are too stuck in what they've experienced and too stubborn to think about the future. It can be done, it just takes a lot of smart ideas to make it work.

  6. #6
    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SvnStrSlm View Post
    They have a system in the works.
    One of us has misunderstood what Trion have said.

    My understanding was that they want to make a tool, not just a flagging system. And that implementation would be delayed until they could do it just right.

    If it were just a flag, why would implementation be delayed designing it? I think they're working on more than just a flag.
    Guild Leader of Serenity on Bloodiron EU PvP
    I blog at http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara Fiasco3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SvnStrSlm View Post
    They have a system in the works. They are going for a typical LFG system to start. .
    Well they don't right now. That's what I suggested above, but it's certianly no where close to a functioning lfg system. The majority of the people who play rift don't even know an LFG channel exists even though they are automically placed into the channel.

    And to make matters worse, if you are in the level 20-29 range, you can't even join the level 30-39 range channel, or the 40-49 range channel etc. Right now, if you are trying to make an RD group (which is about a level 48 dungeon, so players 38+ are generally doing it), anyone who is level 38 and trying to make a group doesn't see that there are people level 40+ that want to do the dungeon. They are spamming level 30-39 chat and possibly the zone they are in chat, sometimes level 1-9 chat hoping they can find people. It doesn't make sense that you can't join any channel.

    I think people can agree that the system sucks right now, but I don't think a dungeon que is necessarily the answer.

  8. #8
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    77

    Default

    So, when queuing, you can obviously have the option to want to "Lead" the group, i.e. be the group leader.

    My suggestion would be:

    - When 4 people have been found (Tank, Healer, 2 DPS), the "Leader" can choose to have the system look for either another DPS, a Support/Heal (Bard, Shamicar, etc.) or a Support/DPS (Archon). Obviously these would be options in everyone's queuing status as well.

    So a message would pop up on the Leaders' screen when 4 people have been found. The leader picks which he wants to fill that spot, and go along their marry way.

    The reason I believe this works because, right now, all groups are at the leader's mercy already as far as who gets invited. Also, I believe that all dungeons are designed to work with anywhere from 1 to 1.5 healers. Key word is designed, not how they actually work at the moment (changes are obviously coming).

    Just a thought.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker Shujiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2

    Default

    I would love a flag system as opposed to a LFD. I understand that some people might not flag themselves, but I can't really seeing it being too much of an issue. I absolutely hate WoW's LFG, and although I'm sure Trion could improve on it I'm not sure I would ever like it much.

    Just give me a giant list of people looking for dungeons, what role they want to fill, and probably some sort of off-spec info and I'll be happy.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts