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Thread: Idea for Dungeons and Raids to Scale

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Idea for Dungeons and Raids to Scale

    With the technology that Trion uses with rifts and dynamic content, I believe that it is about time another mmo made dungeons and raid dynamic in how many people are required to complete them.

    As it stands and everyone knows as a lot of mmos put the same requirements on dungeons and raids, there is a required number of players in order to complete them. 5 players for expert dungeons (and regular) and 20 for raids. 10 for raid rifts, BUT you can bring however many you want and this is key.

    Why not make a system that allows players to be able to complete dungeons and raids with less, or more people for more or less rewards. Why not something like, 3-7 players for expert dungeons, 8-25 for raids. Of course these are rough numbers and balancing per person would be required. I think that it has been far to long that groups have NEEDED to fulfill a certain group number requirement and not completely skill.

    I know that for a lot of people this won't make much sense, as it is an mmo and grouping with people is very important, but somewhere along the line it did get turned to 5 players for dungeons (or something similar) and 10 to 25 for raiding. Honestly, that is not that many people and still doesn't really fall into what MMO means.

    When I do raids and dungeons, I love doing them with my guild. We are a group of people with families and jobs (as I'm sure most people do) that was all in a bigger guild but after some stuff happened, we ended up being a group of about 10 really strong skilled players. I love to play with THESE people, I don't really like to pug but most nights we either have 3 to 4 players or on some nights we get 7 to 9. In both of these cases, we cannot raid. In one we cannot do experts and in the other we could do experts but then people have to set out. One of the things that has been really great for our guild is the use of expert rifts, we love them and wish that this kind of technology could be applied to more things. When we have over 5 people, we start expert rift grinding, it's given our guild something to do together when we don't have the full 10 people for raid rifts and too many for experts.

    I've talked to several people and they feel the same way. We create guilds of people that we love to play with, sometimes its not many and others its a lot. Neither should be punished, if you have a guild that can easily get 20 people then the raid should scale to 20, or if your guild can get 30, then it should scale to 30. However, if you guild can't always get the 20 (maybe 18) and you have to call a raid, then it should scale down as well.

    TL;DR: Expert dungeons and Raids should scale to the amount of people you have with certain restraints put on them. Such as dungeons 3 to 7 (or something) and raids 8 to 30 (or something) this way they are more flexible to your guild and how many you can get in your group. Rewards will have to be taken into consideration and a good balance.

  2. #2
    Sez
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    No. I mean, thats the whole purpose of raiding... If anything, make it 20 or more, or 5 or more, and keep loot the same.

    Oh wait, expert rifts already do this...
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  3. #3
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    I like this idea, but caveat it with keeping the minimum size of it at the normal group size.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sez View Post
    No. I mean, thats the whole purpose of raiding... If anything, make it 20 or more, or 5 or more, and keep loot the same.

    Oh wait, expert rifts already do this...
    What is the whole purpose of raiding? For me and I assume others its something that is really enjoyable and a way to advance your character. What makes it enjoyable, for me at least, is doing it with people that I actually like, not ones that I just use as a means to get good gear.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
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    I actually like this idea. In DAoC the first time we killed the dragon with one group was HUGE. It took us a while before we got it down, but it was a major accomplishment for us. I would totally be in support of dynamic content. The only thing I suggest would be to make a level cap of players that should be there and if your above that the dfficulty goes crazy. The dragon got to be mind numbing at a certain point. Don't turn it into a i brought 40 people with me just to claim credit. Make it so it is an *** kicker if you bring in tons of people

  6. #6
    Sez
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    Quote Originally Posted by karajix View Post
    What is the whole purpose of raiding? For me and I assume others its something that is really enjoyable and a way to advance your character. What makes it enjoyable, for me at least, is doing it with people that I actually like, not ones that I just use as a means to get good gear.
    If you don't have 20 close friends (I don't think many do, I'm in a raiding guild but don't "like" all of them) you probably still have a solid 4 that you do like.

    You can get great gear doing 5mans, and have fun.

    But you can't expect to see all the "cool" end game content that others get to see by tolerating those 10-15 "filler people."
    Sez is now Zes on Dayblind

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  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Yeah, this is something I'd really like to see. I think it takes a lot of the pressure of grouping off when you have options. Too many people interested in the dungeon, or too few? Doesn't matter, you can do it regardless.

    Couple of points though:

    1) You're not going to see it in this game (unless possibly in a far off expansion). I think it's probably too late for this one, as the current dungeon systems are already set in stone. They would be hesitant to implement the system on any new content, because that means they either have to update the old content, or they have to keep the old content at the same structured limits and pretend it doesn't matter. I can't imagine they'd want to do either.

    2) It's way easier to have a set limit of players on a dungeon. The structure means you can easily scale fights up and down, because you know exactly how much tanking/healing/dps is required to accomplish it. Scaling systems don't necessarily mean, "Oh, there's 1 more player in here. Increase stats by x amount to compensate.". There's more to it than that.

    3) It's gonna be hard to get a developer to want to put in the time to work out a complex scaling system, especially when most players aren't asking for it. People are perfectly content with what they are used to, and they are used to 5 (or 6) man dungeons, and 10 or 20 (or 25) man raiding. It'll take a ballsy dev team to break that mold.

    Again, I like the idea though. I hope the hurdles can eventually be overcome, as I think it'd be a great addition to any game. Giving players more freedom of choice is A OK to me.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sez View Post

    But you can't expect to see all the "cool" end game content that others get to see by tolerating those 10-15 "filler people."
    Why can I not expect this?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyliak View Post
    Yeah, this is something I'd really like to see. I think it takes a lot of the pressure of grouping off when you have options. Too many people interested in the dungeon, or too few? Doesn't matter, you can do it regardless.

    Couple of points though:

    1) You're not going to see it in this game (unless possibly in a far off expansion). I think it's probably too late for this one, as the current dungeon systems are already set in stone. They would be hesitant to implement the system on any new content, because that means they either have to update the old content, or they have to keep the old content at the same structured limits and pretend it doesn't matter. I can't imagine they'd want to do either.

    2) It's way easier to have a set limit of players on a dungeon. The structure means you can easily scale fights up and down, because you know exactly how much tanking/healing/dps is required to accomplish it. Scaling systems don't necessarily mean, "Oh, there's 1 more player in here. Increase stats by x amount to compensate.". There's more to it than that.

    3) It's gonna be hard to get a developer to want to put in the time to work out a complex scaling system, especially when most players aren't asking for it. People are perfectly content with what they are used to, and they are used to 5 (or 6) man dungeons, and 10 or 20 (or 25) man raiding. It'll take a ballsy dev team to break that mold.

    Again, I like the idea though. I hope the hurdles can eventually be overcome, as I think it'd be a great addition to any game. Giving players more freedom of choice is A OK to me.
    As I did not mention it, it was only an idea I had and thought I would suggest it. I fully agree that it isn't something that is simple or supported, but I do think its where MMOs should be headed if they want to maintain and grow. Rift has the technology and developers who can actually make this work, whereas other games probably didn't.

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