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Thread: The melee conundrum

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default The melee conundrum

    I'm sure most of the PvE players in this game, by this point, have figured out that most boss fights either slightly, or sometimes massively, favor ranged dps classes. So they basic question that comes from this is:

    How do you justify having equal melee dps when, on average, they seem to be in more danger and are a larger liability to the raid and healers especially?

    So, you have 2 boss fights:
    1. Those that favor ranged
    2. Those that are basically neutral
    I have not cleared every T2 or GS but I have yet to come to a fight that actually favored melee. If there is, please tell me.

    The problem is this: to quickly answer this problem then melee dps should do more damage on bosses during their "up time", that is time when they can actually dps. However, on those type 2 fights (often tank and spanks and/or dps checks), ranged dps (especially mages) will complain that melee will do more dps because they have near 100% up time.

    So, how do you balance it out where all dps classes are roughly equivalent in potential damage on both types of boss fights?

    I suggest a variable debuff. During development, have top PvE players test new boss encounters as both melee and ranged dps classes. Figure out the "up time" (which will pretty much always favor ranged) and determine what % of the fight the two dps variants are actually able to dps. Then, have bosses start with a variable debuff which "increases melee damage by this %" (or ranged damage if some boss actually favors melee).

    This way, you can balance all dps classes around being able to roughly do equivalent dps on those tank and spank dps check fights while simultaneously have all dps specs be equal on fights with more complex mechanics and less up time.

    If Trion already does this, then discount this whole message lol. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    I don't know about the solution, but I agree that it's a problem.

    I wouldn't take any, but the most exceptional melee into T1/T2/GS content. Melee is doable, but it requires a smart player who is well geared and they're few and far between.
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant exLupo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruin View Post
    1. Those that favor ranged
    Trion has asked for feedback on fights that overly punish melee so those encounters can be retuned to be accessible to both m and r dps.
    There is no better cause to fight than the simple need that blood be spilled. Do not fight because you receive reward or praise. Fight because that other bastard exists solely to die at the end of your blade.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by exLupo View Post
    Trion has asked for feedback on fights that overly punish melee so those encounters can be retuned to be accessible to both m and r dps.
    Alright, well I guess the last boss in DSM (Plutonius or something) would be a perfect example then. Doesn't he have a super strong aoe right around him with nothing that correspondingly effects ranged?

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    so every figth must be retuned, since there isnt a ny figth for meles, where every figth is make for rangeds.

    and if any figth will be done for meles, ranged can be in mele range without any penalty, so or make meles inmunes to aoes, or they need to have higer dps, and i dont understand how some peoples(ranged criers) think that have to do the same dps as meles, when they only have to sit their but on the ground and spam 1 button

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruin View Post
    Alright, well I guess the last boss in DSM (Plutonius or something) would be a perfect example then. Doesn't he have a super strong aoe right around him with nothing that correspondingly effects ranged?
    No, but ranged get to keep DPSing while melee gets knocked back. You can immediately move towards Plutonus after KB but you can't get too close or you'll get hit by lightning. In fact tanks can avoid a 3k hit by immediately moving towards Plutonus so he doesn't summon you forward and get clapped.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    I have played several other mmos (but not that) and this kind of dynamic is pretty common. The best and easiest way to solve this issue would be if the melee could interrupt this aoe, just like in many other games. In this way they would be much more useful because even with a lower dps they could add a strategic factor to the fight, with a little bit of coordination. At that point a party would be incentivated to bring 1 more melee.
    Skills that interrupt casting are yet in the game, they only need to make those attacks interruptible.

  8. #8
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    Melee need to do a tiny bit more damage than ranged, else ranged will pretty much be best all the time.

    Currently a few encounters I find crappy as melee.
    Third boss in DSM spam alot of stuns/knockback in melee, really ruins melee dps.
    First boss in RD is tricky atm as melee, since the ground AoE or whatever is bugged, so avoiding dmg is rather hard!
    Last boss DSM is easy enough, just hard to keep dps high as melee.
    Last boss in KB is a clusterf**k, but its still doable to avoid the dmg, but I really miss my ranged riftblade spec for this one!

    I dont really mind ranged being better at some encounters, but when a melee gets to lash on the enemy they should be doing more damage than the ranged, else its rather pointless to bring/gear melee dps.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Totek the Aincent is freaking impossible.

    Every 5 seconds he does a melee Aoe knockback, making your dps gimped, and when he gets furious, hello 4k damage a second AoE

  10. #10
    Telaran Deadsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exLupo View Post
    Trion has asked for feedback on fights that overly punish melee so those encounters can be retuned to be accessible to both m and r dps.
    They shouldn't need to get any friggin feedback. They designed the fights and should have known it would be atrocious for melee when doing so.
    Last edited by Deadsoul; 04-07-2011 at 06:12 PM.
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  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Ragnoth the Despoiler = just annoying for melee, light spawn far away + snare too powerful, cleave, painfull, not fun.
    Totek the ancient = KB, KB, KB.
    Sparkwing = anti-melee, ae stun, pbaoe, nothing against ranged.
    Flesheater Autoch + Soulflayer Mondrach = ae cloud in melee, charge ability : can hit melee+ranged.
    Shadehorror Phantasm = anti-melee adds, stupidly high aura dmg for melee dps, nothing against ranged.
    Konstantin = 3.5K 360 unavoidable cleave (hopefully seems he can't crit...), mathosian painfull, nothing against ranged.
    Pyromaster Cortilnald = Teleport too much, void pillar in melee, can't really dps him in melee.
    Oludare the Firehoof = anti-melee, deals way too much damage for a T1 in melee, many abilities unavoidable.
    Bonehew the Thunderer = ae stun, ae kb, kb, dot with ae effect....totally anti-melee.
    Gatekeeper Kaleida = fire phase way too powerfull for melee, Fire blast too fast and deals way too much dmg, room sucks to avoid dmg.
    Dichrom = stupid encounter, Ground Fault unavoidable AND CAN CRIT = ONESHOT., can't do **** against that.
    Plutonus = melee can dps 5sec every 20sec, yeah right.
    Cyclorax = stupid and annoying encounter, hell for melee same as Plutonus.
    Rictus = was a well tuned encounter but since the void zone dot change, it's stupidly annoying for melee.

    Now there's a way to negate some of those stupid anti-melee ****s for warrior but i won't tell it since i know Trion will nerf warrior again.

    I'v yet to see a melee friendly fight, even Jultharin tank&spank still have an aoe fear in melee just to piss us off.
    Last edited by Fufy; 04-07-2011 at 06:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander Sicarius88's Avatar
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    Most bosses do require melee to run away to get out of AOE crap....especially Cylorax but no warrior should be complaining about Totek the Ancient.....paragorn way of the mountain you are IMMUNE to knockback and take 0dmg that whole fight. Rogue DPS can complain but they have more effective range IMO so they can just go ranged.

    I would like to see a melee friendly fight but the problem I see is that if it becomes a range punishing boss healers normally sit at range and I cannot even imagine the rage that will come from a boss nuking healers with other ranged.

    Basically stay smart, pay attention, run when needed, and melee should stay up fine.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Even where melee is doable it takes more skill and practise and even then leaves you less dps time than an ranged character.

    It is tempting to say all melee class should do 40+ more dps then ranged to cover for this. However this wouldn't work because of the problems it would cause with PVP and the fact that the melee dps up time varies from fight to fight.

    I suggest a 3 point plan.

    1) All callings should have solid ranged options, so people can used ranged when they are learning a fight. This it to stop people being excluded because "we only want to take people who can ranged dps while we learn X content"

    2) A review (as Trion are doing) of all bosses to eliminate fights where it is impossible to melee for any sensible dps.

    3) An individual debuff on certain boss mobs that increases the damage that boss takes from melee. This could be balanced on a per boss basis to account for the relative DPS uptime between ranged and melee characters.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Musufasa101's Avatar
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    They addressed this. They boosted war dos so high that it still outdpses other classes, even though the fights aren't melee friendly.

  15. #15
    Rift Master
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    Imo the energy and power class mechanics of rogues and warriors are designed for this. Get to the boss, burn the energy/power and recharge while running away from the AE. However, this normally doesn't work because then melees would need additional abilities that drain a lot of energy but deal massive damage. This would probably be a nightmare for PvP and energy restores/cost reduces could make this a problem, too.
    This would mean that melees would have 2 different rotations. One that burns energy quickly and one that allows them steady DPS. Overall this would also make melees a lot better when you need burst, for example for destroying a healing crystal.
    Or maybe give them abilities that can be charged up while moving? Like a prepared strike that consumes energy/power while moving and deals good damage on your next autoattack or charge-style attack.

    But as I mentioned this would probably be imbalanced for PvP. While I don't care for it, many people do. So I think Trion should just do away with most boss abilities that put melees at a sever disadvantage or even put the MT or even the whole group in danger.
    There are plenty of those fights and for testing I'd just suggest testrunning the instances themselves. Which effects are too hard to run away from? Which effects that are just meanth for the MT also hit the melee? Which effects that are not meant to spawn in melee distance put the MT or the whole group at risk?

    One great example is a recently redesigned encounter, the first boss of RD. Having a melee in this fight is a great risk because it drastically increases the chance of getting an AoE + Pull in instawipe. In addition, there are other dangers for melee in this fight like being knocked away or randomly being punched in the face.
    Considering this encounter has just recently been redesigned, there has to be someone in the dungeon/encounter design team who thinks punishing melees is great design.

    Just look at DSM.
    DSM 3rd boss: Debuff on MT or melee often prevents melee from being able to get in melee range. Both MT and melee get hit by stun.

    DSM 4th boss: Fire phase fire cast should not hit targets standing behind the boss (or have a longer casting time). Fire phase is so healing-intensive that melees can just wiggle their thumbs. This is in addition to increasing the danger of the crystals spawning on the MT. In earth phase, melee even put theirselves at risk if they want to put a healing debuff on the boss because they get hit by his stomping attack. If the healing crystals spawn at a bad location, a melee can need considerable time to get to them while a ranged can just pewpew away at them.

    DSM 5th boss: It cleaves and needs to be moved around constantly at the edge of the lasers. Can't stand behind it because of lasers, can't stand next to it because of cleave onehits if it is moved in a bad moment. Also kicks not just the MT but also the melees.

    DSM last boss: Has a stomping on ground AE-effect after throwing everyone away. Ranged can continue DPSing while melees wiggle their thumbs. Our melee once exclaimed "yeah, I got hit by his disorient effect! I'm finally useful!"
    And this is just one inctance.

    Don't understand me wrong. The instance can still be completed with a melee. But playing melee in some fights just isn't fun.
    Being hit by area effects that can't be avoided or have a too fast cast time isn't fun.
    Being constantly hit by damage and requiring much more healing than ranged DPS isn't fun.
    Putting your MT or group in danger just for being melee is incredibly anti-fun.
    Being able to run out of an area effect without taking damage, charging back in and repaying that boss for what he just tried. This is fun.

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