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Thread: Small issue with how things are being done.

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser
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    Default Small issue with how things are being done.

    Herro good people at Trion,

    This letter is for you.

    I have been really enjoying the raid content thus far in Greenscale Blight. We have been able to get the first four bosses down and we almost had Lord Greenscale before the recent buff that was implemented.

    Now we are having some issues, unlike the guilds that have already downed Lord Greenscale. You see, the problem is that the people that downed the boss before the buff were able to farm some gear from this boss before it was buffed making the buff not matter as much to them.

    We can still get to 3rd phase, and far beit that eventually we will farm enough gear from the previous four bosses to be able to down Lord Greenscale. As now we have run into a gear check having not been able to farm this boss prior to the buff as some other guilds have been able to do so.

    This is not a QQ post, and please do not take it in such a way. I did prefer the original version of the fight, as it was much more enjoyable then the buffed version, but that is not what this post is about. This post is about not changing a fight once it has been released and guilds have downed the boss and in doing so farmed gear from the boss.

    It makes it unfair on the world progression lists. It ruins the competition and really should never be done.

    You have done this with Lord Greenscale, which I feel is unfortunate as now I do not consider any guilds that have downed this boss pre buff to be in the running for world competition in PvE progression.

    They are all out of the running as they have been able to attain gear from the boss before it was buffed and now any kill they receive on the boss, even post buff, doesn't really count because they have gear from the boss already making the buff not as difficult.

    The competition for the top world guild in Rift no longer counts and is all messed up as the fights have been changed. Now we really won't be able to tell which guild is the top guild until the next raid content is released.

    Basically to sum this all up. What I am saying is that once you release boss/raid content, set it in stone.

    Never change a boss fight once a guild has downed the boss and acquired loot from it or in doing so you ruin the competition for everyone.

    You could always set Lord Greenscale back to his original mode and difficulty. But that would only be fair and logical, which makes me assume you won't.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Your logic is circular, because these other guilds were able to do something that your guild did not yet manage to do, what they did...better than you...should not count? Doesn't really make sense. Yes, the fact that they were ahead of you before the change is an advantage, but they were already ahead anyway....

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    In general I agree with the sentiment about buffing boss fights after they've been downed but it doesn't discount the achievement of the people that got there first. Greenscale needed to have his health increased. As it is now the encounter is largely about handling a couple of mechanics that pile up on each other as the phases progress but once they are understood he could have twice the health he has now and he could still be killed barring an enrage.

    If anything has derailed competitive raiding at the outset of endgame content in rift it's the absence of the saga quest chain on the guardian side and the "balance" brought to the completion of that chain for both sides in the recent patch. There are now about 10 guilds where all, or most, of the raiders have BiS weapons and an awful lot of guilds who could have been competitive that are now months behind with no recourse.

    I don't know how important competitive raiding is to the viability of an MMO but it's important to me personally and it's important to the people in my guild. The best competition on our server is a Guardian guild that will probably down Greenscale soon but beating them to the next bunch of server firsts won't be as sweet when we come to the proverbial knife fight with guns.
    Last edited by McRask; 03-31-2011 at 11:03 PM.

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    Champion Deistik's Avatar
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    Things being changed and evolving is just a part of MMOs. You'll either have to a) learn to deal with it or b) go play Dragon Age
    <Disturbance> @Vigil
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  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deistik View Post
    Things being changed and evolving is just a part of MMOs. You'll either have to a) learn to deal with it or b) go play Dragon Age
    When did this become the end all, be all answer to reasonable objections?

    I want there to be a competitive raiding environment in Rift. With the recent changes that is undermined to the point that I won't even enjoy my guild's server firsts as much anymore.

  6. #6
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    Well, after having giving it some more thought and reading the responses. I can admit that the guilds that did down Lord Greenscale earned that kill and can be rated as being the top current guilds.

    But in light of the saga quest issue and even more so, the fact that these guilds have this advantage now will ruin the competitive edge for any future released content.

    What has transpired has in no doubt ruined competitive raiding in Rift, it may have damaged the competitive feel for it to the point of which that it can not be repaired.

    This was a MAJOR oversight and was unfortunately over looked by Trion Worlds when they released these buffs and also did not fix the Saga quest sooner for the Guardian side. Which even after having fixed the saga quest having set in motion the LONG time frame debuff to how long it will take Guardians to catch up to the Defiants in this area.

    Back on point though.

    The current buff to Greenscale definately needs removed. It can not stay in the game unfortunately as in leaving it in the game allows too much of an edge to players that had already passed this benchmark before the buff and acquired the gear making the buff non effective to them.

    Also, the Guardian side needs the Saga quest to be the way it was before the patch for the Defiant side. As in doing so will allow the Guardians to catch up and thus make the competitive raiding fair. The Defiant side having already had the edge needs the quest change in the patch to remain changed. To even the balance so to say.

    This is of course my opinion. Some would agree and others would not. But this has to be addressed as the damage has only began to show itself.

    A situation like this WILL effect all future progression for everyone. If you were past the benchmark on Lord Greenscale or on the Saga quest you have an unfair edge now. And the victories of the future will not taste so sweet, that is also unfair to you.

    I am all for making encounters difficult, but as my original post stated, once a boss has been released on live servers it and has been killed then looted by ONE guild, then that boss and it's mechanics can and should not EVER change or it ruins the fun for anyone that puts heart into the competition.

  7. #7
    Zor
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    We are very sensitive to this issue. And we do everything we can to avoid situations like you describe. But sometimes we have make to make a change for the betterment of the game even if the timing isn't close to ideal.

    Greenscale's Blight didn't launch as smoothly as we hoped, but we we're doing everything we can to improve both the game and the way we handle having to update and communicate those updates to the players.
    -Berenger Fish-
    Dungeons & Raids Lead

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Solace's Avatar
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    just because you say "This is not a QQ post" doesnt make it so. the guilds that beat this encounter before already beat you to it. it's the same result.

    if a guild downed bosses before yours and got drops before yours and downs other bosses before yours because of the drops... you'll still be behind no matter the raid changes. you seem to depend on gear so much.
    Last edited by Solace; 04-01-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Wait, wait...you don't want raids and raid bosses to be balanced and errors to be fixed because of some competition between guilds? I can assure you that the majority of people playing the game (I don't think I need to provide data on "majority" here...common sense should be enough) couldn't care less about whatever competition you have between guilds and would not want a raid or its bosses to remain unbalanced or not working properly because of a few people trying to inflict some sort of competition into a non-competitive aspect of the game.

    I want the game to work properly and for all of its features to be the way the Devs envision them to be. Change the rules of your little competition or whatever you need to do in order to feel good about yourselves but don't try and keep aspects of the game unbalanced for the rest of us.

  10. #10
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zor View Post
    We are very sensitive to this issue. And we do everything we can to avoid situations like you describe. But sometimes we have make to make a change for the betterment of the game even if the timing isn't close to ideal.

    Greenscale's Blight didn't launch as smoothly as we hoped, but we we're doing everything we can to improve both the game and the way we handle having to update and communicate those updates to the players.
    Understandable, this type of thing happens in all mmo's with decent raid content. Its kind of the benefit to getting things done first. The guilds that get stuff done first get rewards of mistakes and penalties of mistakes also. For example: the rewards are obvious...a boss that is way too easy or the quest reward for killing GS that was changed. The penalties would be trying to beat content that is overtuned and unbeatable. This type of thing is unavoidable and its okay to make changes, just as long as they are done quickly and it seems Trion has done pretty well in that department.
    Last edited by Bluelightt; 04-01-2011 at 04:40 PM.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchews View Post
    Never change a boss fight once a guild has downed the boss and acquired loot from it or in doing so you ruin the competition for everyone..
    What is this mythical competition you speak of? Since when is MMO instance content a race?

    LOL?

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    OP speaks truth.

    I makes sense to rather overtune the encounters from the beginning and slowly start adjusting (read: nerfing) them to make them more accessible to more guilds over time. This way it gives the world first kills a lot more meaning.

    And I'm sorry to bring WoW into this but those who remember Muru/Entropius & Kil'Jaeden before the nerfs know what I mean when I saying killing them pre-2.4.2 was one hell of a feeling and achievement.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
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    Actually all you bagging on the OP are the real QQers since you are defending people who downed a boss on EZ mode getting and keeping their loot when in fact if the encounter is later tuned harder their gear is de fact exploited from the boss in relation to current content.

    This is a problem in most MMOs I agree, but its one that developers need to take a lot more seriously as to the effects.

    To give an example from Burning Crusade in WOW, when it was launched, the Moroes fight was easily doable using a legacy trinket many of us had been holding onto since the start of the game, anticipating a time when it would actually be useful and have a purpose. With this boss, it finally did. Those that leveled quickly and got to raid it in the first few weeks were able to use the trinket to remove bleed effects, thereby in Blizzard's terms, trivializing the fight.

    In fact, I don't agree with Blizzard's assessment. THEY put the trinket in the game to remove a bleed effect once every 5 or 30 minutes (it was a fairly long timer, you'd only use it once in the fight). They then later released this boss with the bleed effect, which the trinket was an obvious counter. Players then used the trinket (those that still had it) and it made the fight easy. That was really, working as intended. But someone at Blizzard was oh so upset that people were able to get thru the fight easily by using the provided game mechanics. So they then nerfed the trinket so that it had no effect vs mobs over level 60 (the boss being 73). Everyone coming to that fight thereafter had a difficult time of it till they were geared up enough to heal thru it, or they had to bring a raid heavy on certain classes/races that could remove the bleed with other mechanics.

    It was pure BS. The few that were there early got a boost ahead of everyone else and then had the gate slammed on them by the devlopers. Situations like that cumulatively disenchant a player with the game, happening enough times and you are quite ready for the next best thing to come along instead of being happily involved in the content.

    If you've got an encounter that players being clever make it simpler than you intended - SO WHAT!?! Next time you know how to make a more difficult encounter. The entire POINT of RPGs was so that player could make game of their inventiveness and cleverness. When you trivialize and disenfranchise that effort, you directly attack the core of the RPG experience in a negative fashion. The subsequent tuning up of the boss means the early players have loot they "don't deserve" under the revised content. If you are running a fair game, that loot would be revoked. But of course you cannot do that, because those elitists would whine your game down over every fan rag in the business.

    Reverting a boss downward does have a similar connotation, that subsequent players didn't "earn" that loot beating it on EZ mode. We see this whine from elitists in every game where a boss gets retuned based on broken or too difficult mechanics that someone managed to beat anyway. They feel cheated because someone else gets what they already got without "earning" it. The difference here, is that these players are already the clear leaders, the change is only helping the lagging players keep up thus keeping the game more competitive. Frankly those guys that beat it the hard way, demean themselves because while no one is removing or discreditting their effort, they are being poor sports (babies) about someone else finally getting thru a benchmark and getting loot they already have, and presumably have even moved past. This was referred to in the old days as the "dog in the manger" - 20 x 20 room, with more than enough space, but the dog won't let the horse lie down in it.

    If you are going to take a boss and make it harder, maybe tune up the loot as well. Then at least the extra difficulty the latter players must beat has its commensurate reward for the extra effort they require vs the early birds who already got the loot and can now trivialize the change.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Elco's Avatar
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    I agree with you that boss fights should start difficult, and be tweaked downwards. thats what eq2 does.

    but eq2 takes it too far to where they make raid fights completely un-beatable to try and string along players during their compleate dearth of content for months and months on end..

    there may be a hppy medium, but I challenge you to figure it out.

    Im not too concerned what others are doing, as long as the content I am playing has a solution that doesnt rquire cookie cutter builds.

    if this game is going to fail, it will be because the content guys are basing everything off of cookie cutter builds, while the people in charge of souls arent even aware what they are doing.

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