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Thread: The tier 2 plaque change is unacceptable.

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara Badgered's Avatar
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    Default The tier 2 plaque change is unacceptable.

    To the fine folks at Trion:

    I can understand you making bosses harder, because they were too easy. I can understand you nerfing classes, because they were doing too much damage/healing/buffing, thus making content easier than you intended. Basically, I can understand you guys adding challenge into the game. In order for games to be fun, they must be challenging. I think we can all agree on that point.

    What I cannot understand, however, is adding time-sinks and grinds into the game. The only conceivable reason for you folks to change this is because you underestimated the rate at which players would clear through your content. This is not an acceptable reason to introduce a grind to the game. The prices for tier 2 relic gear is now unreasonable when compared to the amount of plaques we receive per dungeon run.

    I play a lot; probably more than most people do. I get about 25 hours of Rift in per week (I don't watch TV). In that time, I run about 6-8 expert dungeons, depending on what my guild wants to do. Assuming 16 plaques per run (6 bosses plus 4 completion plaques), I'm looking at roughly one item every week and a half. Now, consider this: most people play a lot less than I do. I don't think most players are going to feel very motivated to play if they can expect to get an item once every two weeks or so.

    Rather than make us grind more of the same easy to moderately challenging dungeons, how about you guys do what you did with the account security issue. Admit you screwed up. Admit you underestimated your player base and launched without enough content to satisfy everyone. Let us know more details about what is coming out in the future. Give us something to get excited about. Don't make us grind more simply because you were not prepared for the level of dedication and excitement your players have for your game.

    Do not make the mistake of adding grinds and time-sinks into Rift as a method of covering your own lack of content. This goes against the very philosophy you guys talked about in several interviews before Rift launched. Don't be those people. Fess up, tell us what you're bringing out, and roll back the added grind.

    Bring tier 2 dungeons back to 15 plaques per completion. Give us more content in the future. Don't underestimate us, and don't punish us with time-sinks because of your design mistakes. Learn from your mistakes, communicate with us, and carry on. Thanks.
    Greybriar
    Atesh - Bahmi Warrior - REA | CHA
    Ellystra - Bahmi Mage - CHL | STO | PYR
    Let's put rifts and invasions to good use!

  2. #2
    Shadowlander Cirawin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgered View Post
    What I cannot understand, however, is adding time-sinks and grinds into the game.
    Revenue is built from keeping people paying for the game each month. Gear is basically the only reason for any kind of end-game. If they give you this gear too easily and too fast, then you'll have no reason to pay monthly until the next major content patch.

    See, not so hard to understand.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara Badgered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirawin View Post
    Revenue is built from keeping people paying for the game each month. Gear is basically the only reason for any kind of end-game. If they give you this gear too easily and too fast, then you'll have no reason to pay monthly until the next major content patch.

    See, not so hard to understand.
    I'm aware of the financial reasons why they would do this. However, I value fun above finances, and if Trion has any sense they should too. If players aren't having fun playing their product (a game), then why are they going to continue to financially support them?

    Then they need to have more content in place next time rather than artificially slow progress down with a time-sink. It was fine the way it was before in terms of time spent and rewards acquired. There are many, many games on the market where in place of time-sinks they have real content.

    Adding in time-sinks in place of content is not a trap that Trion wants to fall into. You need only look at the "success" of Asian-style MMOs in the Americas to see how that design philosophy pans out.
    Greybriar
    Atesh - Bahmi Warrior - REA | CHA
    Ellystra - Bahmi Mage - CHL | STO | PYR
    Let's put rifts and invasions to good use!

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgered View Post
    Adding in time-sinks in place of content is not a trap that Trion wants to fall into. You need only look at the "success" of Asian-style MMOs in the Americas to see how that design philosophy pans out.
    No matter how i agree on the whole "more content instead of grind", this is wrong, it is like saying "wow is failing due to terrible pvp balance", while sure a problem, grind was hardly the most significant factor in the demise of L2 or aion outside of korea.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    I am ignorant to Trions specific finances, but, considering they've had 1 million subs @ $50 a pop... they should have an easy time with staffing to provide for additional content rather than artificially expanding their current content, I don't play to grind the same dungeons/bosses/areas over and over...



    and over.


    Same with the crafting plaques... I've done dailies ever since prelaunch and I've seen no plaques. (Top tier dailies for about 2 weeks now)


    More content, less grind!

  6. #6
    Plane Touched cronius77's Avatar
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    dont know where people keep coming up with a 1 mil sub number when all ive ever seen them say is 1 mil accounts created on their website. This game is bleeding subs daily with the lack of cs or endgame content. As for the plaque nerf I find it funny considering Hartsman bragging daily about how this game has such a vast and large end game. When they nerf something like this it means they have nothing else to offer you and do not want many players getting it done for fear of you leaving because there is nothing left at end game.
    www.deceptionrift.guildportal.com DAOC, WAR, WOW, R.I.P

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    Sword of Telara Stall's Avatar
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    Two points:

    1) I don't understand people who defend Trion for this one, because they are probably the casual people who probably aren't 50 yet, and they are the ones most absolutely HURT by this change, as you referenced briefly in your post. This change was to balance out the efforts of power players, which in turn, is a HUGE blow against the casual player base. These folks are going to be as pissed as we are when they see what a grind this has become. But unfortunately for them, they'll have already paid their sub...

    2) I've said this before, and I'll say it again: TEDIUM IS NOT EQUAL TO CHALLENGE. Blessed will be the first dev company that embraces this maxim. My first impressions of the plaque system made me think Trion had, but after this nerf, I am convinced that they are just another dev company that cannot differentiate challenge and tedium.
    Last edited by Stall; 03-20-2011 at 07:02 PM.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viszeral View Post
    I am ignorant to Trions specific finances, but, considering they've had 1 million subs @ $50 a pop... they should have an easy time with staffing to provide for additional content rather than artificially expanding their current content, I don't play to grind the same dungeons/bosses/areas over and over...



    and over.


    Same with the crafting plaques... I've done dailies ever since prelaunch and I've seen no plaques. (Top tier dailies for about 2 weeks now)


    More content, less grind!
    Lets hypothetically assume they made $50 million in sales, out of this they need to subtract any loans they have taken out to secure funding for the game, the ongoing server hosting costs aswell as continuing to pay for staff and premises for people to work at and enough to pay the staff at the end of the first month, while this figure sounds like a lot it won't all be profit

  9. #9
    Plane Touched cronius77's Avatar
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    because half the people on the boards saying by now that we rushed to 50 what do you expect will never even get a toon to 50 let alone run tier 2 because of the challenge involved. This game has a broken level 50 pvp system , a stupid eq collection , and a buggy dungeon expert system to do at 50 currently. Half our guild is 50 now and bored already with most of them playing maybe like a hour or two a night. When people complained during beta about things you always had this rabid fan mentality that wanted so bad this game destroy wow and other games they were blind to just about everything else. Hence you still see blatant class imbalance in pvp and broken bugs since beta.
    www.deceptionrift.guildportal.com DAOC, WAR, WOW, R.I.P

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Grim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirawin View Post
    Revenue is built from keeping people paying for the game each month. Gear is basically the only reason for any kind of end-game. If they give you this gear too easily and too fast, then you'll have no reason to pay monthly until the next major content patch.

    See, not so hard to understand.
    Yes, you are right. But keeping players means keeping them from being bored. Players will accept a certain amount of grind and repetition. But if it's too much, they leave.... check Aion if you forgot that.

    I don't envy MMO devs. We players are spoiled because there are soo many choices out there now. We expect a lot for our 15 dollars. And if they don't provide it, we leave. That means the devs will be working overtime for years putting out new content at a faster pace than they use to get away with, or... we leave.

    I haven't reached the endgame grind yet. I'm taking my time, hoping that they release more content soon. Rift is a great game, but once the content runs dry..

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Stall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cronius77 View Post
    because half the people on the boards saying by now that we rushed to 50 what do you expect will never even get a toon to 50 let alone run tier 2 because of the challenge involved. This game has a broken level 50 pvp system , a stupid eq collection , and a buggy dungeon expert system to do at 50 currently. Half our guild is 50 now and bored already with most of them playing maybe like a hour or two a night. When people complained during beta about things you always had this rabid fan mentality that wanted so bad this game destroy wow and other games they were blind to just about everything else. Hence you still see blatant class imbalance in pvp and broken bugs since beta.
    You've certainly captured my sentiment to a certain extent. I think that these people accusing us of rushing to 50 are in for a rude awakening once they see the boring, buggy, and now horribly grindy experts and the slapped on prestige system. This is all very disappointing, as I think everyone on these boards wanted Rift to be something really special, but it's just another bad WoW clone with the same endgame we've seen in MMOs for the last 10 years.

    Oh well...

  12. #12
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stall View Post
    You've certainly captured my sentiment to a certain extent. I think that these people accusing us of rushing to 50 are in for a rude awakening once they see the boring, buggy, and now horribly grindy experts and the slapped on prestige system. This is all very disappointing, as I think everyone on these boards wanted Rift to be something really special, but it's just another bad WoW clone with the same endgame we've seen in MMOs for the last 10 years.

    Oh well...
    I don't see how people say those who are 50 rushed to the endgame. I played a few hours a night, sometimes more when I could, and hit 50 2 days ago. I visited all the zones and completed the quest achievement in each before moving on.

    The grind /= challenge comments I totally agree with. Crafting is a perfect example with crafting tokens added onto a leveling process. I find myself more frustrated when trying to do things in Rift then enjoying the supposed challenge.

  13. #13
    Sword of Telara Stall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gropius View Post
    I don't see how people say those who are 50 rushed to the endgame. I played a few hours a night, sometimes more when I could, and hit 50 2 days ago. I visited all the zones and completed the quest achievement in each before moving on.

    The grind /= challenge comments I totally agree with. Crafting is a perfect example with crafting tokens added onto a leveling process. I find myself more frustrated when trying to do things in Rift then enjoying the supposed challenge.
    It's nothing but a silly motto they enjoy repeating to allow themselves to perpetually exist in the first stage of grief. I totally agree that hitting 50 in this game is remarkably fast and easy, with the best (or perhaps worst) part being that it's so remarkably enjoyable, so it's very easy to move fast.

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Badgered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gropius View Post
    I don't see how people say those who are 50 rushed to the endgame. I played a few hours a night, sometimes more when I could, and hit 50 2 days ago. I visited all the zones and completed the quest achievement in each before moving on.

    The grind /= challenge comments I totally agree with. Crafting is a perfect example with crafting tokens added onto a leveling process. I find myself more frustrated when trying to do things in Rift then enjoying the supposed challenge.
    This is another thing that desperately needs to be changed. I've done my dailies for 3 days so far and I haven't seen a single plaque for crafting. I fear that I'm going to get drops better than the crafted items before I get the plaques needed to purchase even one of them.

    Subjecting us to the RNG in order to buy them time to get new content out is not acceptable. In general, MMO developers need to move away from RNG-driven time-sinks and dungeon grinding time-sinks and give us truly difficult content that will take time to complete due to difficulty rather than other time-based restrictions.
    Greybriar
    Atesh - Bahmi Warrior - REA | CHA
    Ellystra - Bahmi Mage - CHL | STO | PYR
    Let's put rifts and invasions to good use!

  15. #15
    Plane Walker
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    So you want them to give you all the gear inside of 2 weeks...Then what? Ohh you will cancel your account until the next content release then renew and repeat?

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