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Thread: A chorus of moos: Laying the cash cow myth to rest.

  1. #1
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Tamarama's Avatar
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    Default A chorus of moos: Laying the cash cow myth to rest.

    I noticed we've had several threads, over the past week or so, remarking on the cost of dimension items and raising the specter of the 'cash cow'.

    I thought I'd generate a few statistics to examine this issue and find out if the cries of cash cow have a basis in fact. This is the result:

    http://thestylishradish.wordpress.co...horus-of-moos/

    This article is my opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt, as all opinions should be. Please use the statistics to make up your own minds.

    Better Homes and Dimensions - A blog just for Dimensions.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    I share your opinion. Good write up.


    Den of Madness | Greybriar | Den of Badness | Derpwood

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    This was a very thoughtful analysis. Thank you for taking the time to compile it and share it with the community!

    While we obviously can't learn any sales statistics to confirm or deny "cash cow" accusations ourselves, I hope this helps both us and Trion better understand our perspective.

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    Thanks for doing the actual numbers for the rest of us who have felt things were overpriced, but had nothing but our guts to back it up.

    I could say a lot more, but I think it'd just dissolve into ranting, and that is far less productive than this simple information post, I think.

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara
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    You cant have it both ways.

    There are 2 ways that most F2P models can go, They either make money through Pay 2 win gear, or they make money via fluff.

    Rift is mainly going down the direction of fluff to make money, dimensions count as fluff therefore they will be used as a cash cow where-ever possible because the altrnative would be selling things which affect gameplay.

    Its unfortunate for the people who mainly play to mess around with dimensions but... imagine the reaction if they were selling gear.

    Its bad that so much of the dimension new items are cash only, but so are mounts, costumes and other fluff items. A better spread between plat and cash items would be welcome, but i see both sides.

  6. #6
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Tamarama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pett View Post
    A better spread between plat and cash items would be welcome, but i see both sides.
    I agree with you, it's not that we should do away with credit purchases but rather balance them out with in game options. I'd prefer to see more credit only purchases but at a cheaper price so we can afford multiples. I'd like to see more dimension content in the game. I'd like to see discount packs of 5 for building blocks.

    I'd really like to see what Trion thinks is a good cost for a 1000 item dimension. How hard should we grind in game and out to build one?

    I agree that dimensions have been labeled fluff and suffer for it but make the burden too high and we'll all just walk away.

    It's also the only player made content in Rift. I'd love to know the figures for people visiting dimensions as opposed to building them.

    I personally find the burden of farming too high. Maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't spent my game budget on a year's subscription and could use that to fund my builds.

    Better Homes and Dimensions - A blog just for Dimensions.

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    Your efforts are always admirable Radish but I akin my account more to a guinea pig than a cow as all sectors of the game would be and the career structure of those who make it also as free to play throws a curve ball for everybody.

    Statistics are good to have but the main statistics missing here is how much is being spent as well as time spent on building Dimensions.

    One only needs to come to these forums to see the amazing huge builds rising everywhere from personal to level 25 guilds. The builds themselves have not slowed down nor has the use of the new and more expensive materials. If we could also average a Dimensioneers hours in a dimension one would perhaps determine that trying to find balance in our sector of the game is not as straight forward as we might think this is why I try my hardest to stay involved in the game and advocate for more content in the Dimensions themselves.

    Suggesting another game coming or walking out doesn't seem the most constructive solution as a community. Getting to understand freetoplay models and instead encouraging more drops in the world, taking dimension items off achievement rewards especially for Conqueror and PvP as well as large grinds under Planes like 500 strongholds seems time better spent for everybody not just us Axisxyz Addicts.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Tamarama's Avatar
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    If I understand you correctly, Kiwi, you are saying that the current state of dimension prices is not slowing down the builds, dimensions are as lively as ever, that my statistics don't go far enough, in that they don't indicate the cost vs the hours of rewarding fun we spend in dimensions, and that we should advocate for more content and enjoy the content that's already in the game. Also, it would be more constructive to understand and accept the free to play model than consider other games might prove more rewarding. Hope I've summarised the spirit of what you are saying.

    Rift is my first real experience of F2P and I don't think it's a model that suits me very well, at least when it comes to dimensions. The subscription model was great. For my monthly payment, I could indulge in any content I chose to work for and it didn't cost me extra.

    Under the F2P model, every credit and platinum I spend must be replaced. I'm too poor to spend credits and too ill to grind thousands of platinum quickly. So replacing the funds to play dimensions represents a burden to me. I've found a solution in building for others but I'm still aware of each platinum and credit spent, always evaluating which is the better deal, can I use something cheaper, yada, yada, yada.

    It's too much like real life and takes the fun out of the whole dimension game. If there were a housing alternative with the quality that dimensions provide but less of a burden, I'd walk away. I doubt I'm alone in that. I'm pretty sure a lot of dimensioneers have dropped out of the game as their free credits ran out.

    Everybody's millage may vary on the amount of grinding they're prepared to do or money they're prepared to pay. Perhaps the majority of people feel the way you do, Kiwi. but I'm selfish, I'd love to go back to the innocent and joyful days where every platinum spent did not mean a grind to gain it back.

    You've been putting some thought into the matter, Kiwi, so what do you think is a fair price for a 1000 item dimension build, in platinum or credits?

    Better Homes and Dimensions - A blog just for Dimensions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamarama View Post
    You've been putting some thought into the matter, Kiwi, so what do you think is a fair price for a 1000 item dimension build, in platinum or credits?
    We've all been putting good time into how things could improve which is awesome, thanks everybody but I must admit I cannot measure in strictly platinum or credits because playing a game for me has many other factors in it and I think if I were to begin measuring our game only based on credits and platinum I would naturally begin to stop enjoying it and neither is a problem for me to attain.

    I have mentioned it before that Dimension items or the game in general went from being that corner store on the street to a mall, we have so many more options but like a mall we can't go in there and buy everything at once. We have to spend within our means, plan a little more, share with others or put things aside little by little. This concept is still sinking in. I remember when something like Faens Retreat was the most awesome beginning as you got your PvP ranks & favor,crafting skills or farmed the necessary gathered items to get someone else to make, leveled up to do great hunts, chronicle, experts knowing soon after that you'd be able to get Dormant Core or Vengeful Sky. (etc)

    For us vet builders the adjustment to 2.3 is somewhat a chore because we've already built our Faens Retreat and probably more than once.

    A fair assessment to me would be what if I started the game with 2.3? Some of our talented builders who begun building at this time started off straight at the end because they planned or could afford to do so, so of course there are exceptions like anything but if I started this game with 2.3 and I have since reached 60 - Then wanted to build a 1000 capacity Dimension the prices seem like I would expect to encourage me to do all these other things to get items credit/ platinum free.
    Last edited by Kiwi; 09-09-2013 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #10
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Kitasia's Avatar
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    I for one have slowed way way down on building. After updating sweethearts, and building my tiny dim. I dont even go in and do my single builds much any more . I used to all the time build one creation save it to toolbox and remove it. I had lots of fun building that way. Now I am farming just to dream about building what I want to build next but over all I have slowed way down.

    Dont get me wrong I am extremely happy for everything that was over 12 plat being cut in half on price . But still My fav tree is 270 plat or 344 credits that's like 2 bucks in rl money. I use alot of stinking trees. So I farm and wait to get up to 10 k plat so i can buy a couple rex and be able to swap between credit and plat items. Realistically I am not going to spend that many credits. However lets say that same tree was still 240 plat but now 10 credits I sure as pooping will be moooing all the way to buying 24 of those trees with credit. Also I would be one of those happy cows from California like on the commercials.

    Cause in truth I would be more then willing to buy rex off the ah from people with rl cash so rift could make more moneys. If it ment I could get the credit costs to where it made me happy to spend them. For now I sorda horde my credits scared to not have enough for who knows what weird things my brain thinks I need to save them for. I am a impulse shopper for what feels like a good deal.

  11. #11
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    For over a month before the F2P Dimension Item explosion, I *tried* on the forums to explain to dimension lovers that this was going to happen and to raise their voices to help show the Devs just how ridiculous they’re being on dimension item pricing. Pretty much all I got in return was… “How many of those items do you plan in putting in your Dimension?!?!” or “30 Plat for 1 item isn’t that much! I can buy 100 of those!”

    /* Jumps forward to today */

    Yeah… I’ll NEVER pay 30 plat for ANY item, I don’t care how cool it would look. I don’t build anymore because from day 1 of F2P I saw that building any new dimension was going to cost me between 10k and 20k plat, which, again, WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

    As the last post I ever posted to the forums already stated: “Until the Devs decide to come down from their astronomically priced fantasy land, I’m not spending another plat or credit on another dimension item.”

    The point of buying stuff is not to spend 200 plat each for 1 or 2 items… the point is to buy 200 items for 1 or 2 plat each. They still get their 400 plat, but we can acutally *build* a dimension at that price. We can't (or in my case *won't*, and refuse to) when prices are more than 2 plat each... I don't care how "cool" the item is.

    The Devs thinking that Dimensions should cost over 3k to build COMPLETELY (and that’s not even considering that they currently cost 15-20k,) is proof they have absolutely no real grasp on the actual gameplay of gamers. I doubt they’ll *ever* truly understand, as I doubt ANY of them have ever *really* built a dimension. They don’t build dimensions… they build dimension *ITEMS* and then assign it a completely absurd, arbitrary price, thinking that they’re awesome for creating items that cost a fortune to buy.

    They’re ridiculous!

  12. #12
    Champion Zyonyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhrawn View Post
    For over a month before the F2P Dimension Item explosion, I *tried* on the forums to explain to dimension lovers that this was going to happen and to raise their voices to help show the Devs just how ridiculous they’re being on dimension item pricing. Pretty much all I got in return was… “How many of those items do you plan in putting in your Dimension?!?!” or “30 Plat for 1 item isn’t that much! I can buy 100 of those!”
    You and I are remembering those events very differently. As I recall, there was a massive outcry against the prices across multiple threads; some of which were even unintentionally derailed from their original topic. Despite that, we saw only minor drops here and there before everything went live. It wasn't a lack of effort, but rather that effort proved unsuccessful.

    Fast forward to now and we see that most of the more expensive items have been reduced by half. While that may not be everything we hoped for, it's certainly a step in the right direction. Hopefully the first of many steps. I suspect we'll see other changes as time goes on. Whether those changes will be good or bad, who knows? Binding the fishing items to accounts and giving everything a 1 silver buyback price certainly weren't good ones IMO, but as dimensions are still evolving, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. For now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pett View Post
    Rift is mainly going down the direction of fluff to make money, dimensions count as fluff therefore they will be used as a cash cow where-ever possible because the altrnative would be selling things which affect gameplay.
    Are they fluff?

    Back before 2.3, I would have said yes. But when you take into account the amount of new items added (with more likely on the way), the fact that players can create up to 10 dimensions per character now, and that they'll soon be usable for PvP, it's difficult to dismiss them as fluff. I'd argue that they've become their own separate section of the game, on par with the various forms of PvE and PvP available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyonyx View Post
    Are they fluff?

    Back before 2.3, I would have said yes. But when you take into account the amount of new items added (with more likely on the way), the fact that players can create up to 10 dimensions per character now, and that they'll soon be usable for PvP, it's difficult to dismiss them as fluff. I'd argue that they've become their own separate section of the game, on par with the various forms of PvE and PvP available.
    That's actually... a good point. I mean, sure, a lot of us have been calling Dimensions our "End Game" for a while now, but in many ways, since 2.3, it has evolved far enough to make that claim realistic. With one exception, I'd argue. Both PvP and Raiding have some return of plat for the investment they require. Dimensions... Not so much. Except as far as selling unwanted dim parts on the AH, which some of don't do (sell my precious? Never!). Plus, since we have to pay plat (or credits) for them, it's more getting something back, than making money.

    With that said, I think the 50% cut, if it spreads to the under 12 plat items (I'm hoping the 12 plat cutoff was just a quick fix, and that the rest of the credit/plat items will be getting the cut manually in the next big patch), is a good start. Sure, I'd like to see a lot of the new trees and plants drop by another 50% (both credit and plat costs) so they'd be more reasonable, but I'm not holding my breath there.

  14. #14
    General of Telara Foxfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyonyx View Post
    Are they fluff?

    Back before 2.3, I would have said yes. But when you take into account the amount of new items added (with more likely on the way), the fact that players can create up to 10 dimensions per character now, and that they'll soon be usable for PvP, it's difficult to dismiss them as fluff. I'd argue that they've become their own separate section of the game, on par with the various forms of PvE and PvP available.
    Zyonyx has a very valid argument here. How do you really define fluff? To me that means something that is strictly cosmetic and totally unnecessary to normal gameplay.

    Maybe in the beginning, dimensions were "intended" to be fluff. But dimensions have now evolved into their own game, and it's a game that is now "pay to win". A certain other game that we've all heard about is pretty much going to base an entire game on this sort of thing. And that could very well be where most of us end up going if Trion doesn't start paying more attention to what is really going on!! Admittedly, perhaps they are considering all this right now, as we speak, but patience is growing very thin at this point. The recent price cut on larger dim items was welcome, but....it was just a bandaid. These prices need some major surgery before they will be acceptable, especially the building blocks and other smaller items.

    Players who are able to buy as much as they like with credits, will STILL use credits simply because it's convenient, and provides instant gratification...no endless hours of grinding to get what they want right now. Players who can't....well, I don't think there are very many of us possessed of enough patience to grind the amount of time it would take to buy what we want with plat. I for one, will definitely not do that. Who would want to spend weeks doing something they did NOT want to do, or enjoy doing, just so at the end of maybe a month or two, they could spend a little time doing what they REALLY want to do? Sounds more like real life than a game, to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxfire View Post
    Players who can't....well, I don't think there are very many of us possessed of enough patience to grind the amount of time it would take to buy what we want with plat. I for one, will definitely not do that. Who would want to spend weeks doing something they did NOT want to do, or enjoy doing, just so at the end of maybe a month or two, they could spend a little time doing what they REALLY want to do? Sounds more like real life than a game, to me...
    It takes a special kind of stupid to do that kind of thing in a game.

    ...which explains why I've been doing it all week. I've managed to get a third of the 1500 plat I need for my windows today alone!

    Yeah, definitely a special kind of stupid.

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