Paladin tanking and damage mitigation.
Through the tests of beta, I have played paladin/void knight/warlord as my tanking build, primarily speccing into Paladin with my off-points into Warlord because the early talents offer avoidance stats and damage mitigating stats. Early on while tanking Realm of the Fae and Darkening Deeps, I had no problem being kept alive, because I felt like I was playing my tank in the correct fashion, by finding items with high Endurance, keeping up damage mitigating abilities such as Pacifying Strike, Aggressive Block, and Empowering Strike. However, once I found myself in The Foul Cascade, this is when I began to have problems living through even the smaller trash pulls.
I ran with the same healer for every instance I encountered. I won't count the healer as a probable issue because through every instance, she would be doing what works. For the lower-end instances, keeping me alive was easily manageable. But once we were running The Foul Cascade, she said that even spamming me with her most powerful heals couldn't keep me alive, I took too much damage. We even used CC on the trash pulls and I still had an issue staying alive.
I do not know where the problem lies. Is Endurance stacking not as powerful as it is in other MMOs? Is a higher avoidance before buffs more favorable? I know blocking is a powerful part of running a Paladin tank. Here is the build I had at 35, the level cap of the most recent beta: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0chgE.E0MzsciszMz..xV
Any advice, constructive criticism, and research made by other players would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Sword of Telara
And that wasn't working? What level is that dungeon? If you were the appropriate level and still failing hard as a tank, almost getting one shotted by every mob there, then you could probably send in some feedback about either modifying the mobs or once again adjusting the defensive souls (which I do not recommend because then they have to yet again re-balance the whole board)
Chances are they just need to adjust the mobs.. I just dont see why you should be failing so hard with decent gear and a shield with at least 1k armor with that build...
Originally Posted by Vember
I use paladin primary for tanking as well but i offset it with reaver for the very nice aoe damage and small amount of healing they also gain not to mention the damage reduction.
Foul cascades itself i had a few issues with one or 2 of the trash mobs spike damage but for the most part was able to do it no problem with 1 healer. However the boss fights we had to have our rogue switch to bard spec to play off healer. less dps but some much easier to deal with group wide damage.
also i am an armorsmith and at all times i used the best armor and shields i could make or quest for
Last edited by tucod; 02-07-2011 at 01:12 PM.
To be precise, my shield had 1290 armor, I was even two levels higher than the recommended level for the instance. Most of my gear was up to par. The only two slots that might have been under par were boots and belt.
Originally Posted by Vyeth
You may be right, and they may need to modify the mobs a little bit. Thirty is the suggested level for The Foul Cascade. It just felt like the abilities I was keeping up to avoid incoming damage weren't even functioning at all.
First off, the spec.
Your spec looks quite good, except i would swap a few things in the warlord tree.
Make sure you get Intimidating, cause that's a 5% DR right there, and it's a passive AoE thing, that is any mob that hits you gets affected by it.
Also, the 5% dodge is much stronger than the 5% block in the warlord tree. This is because they both give the same %, but for the same amount of points. 5% dodge is much more valuable than 5% block, point for point. You'll probably have to choose between 10% armor and 5% dodge, if you pick up Intimidating.
Other than that i don't see anything wrong with your tree. Tip the Balance & Balance of Power are just great for trash (Heal for 160% weapon damage everytime you block )
The thing about Endurance, is that it doesn't actually reduce any damage you take, it just provides a cushion for your healer. Stacking endurance is great when there is unexpected burst damage, or magic damage you can't dodge/block/parry, but it doesn't actually reduce the damage you take.
If the mobs seem to just whittle your health down, even with constant heals from your healer, you might want to balance endurance with stacking block/parry/dodge.
And if none of these things help, you might want to make sure your healer is using their best heals for when you are low.
After messing with my gear a bit on a pally tank, it seemed like I did best with stacking str for the parry/block and extra damage for threat. Focusing on endurance deffinately made me feel squishy. I had a bit more hp, but that hp went away fast.
Originally Posted by Windoth
Last edited by Zappo; 02-07-2011 at 01:37 PM.
On my Paladin/Warlord, I've also felt that at times I take more damage than I should. I run a similar build to yours and also keep Aggressive Block and Pacifying Strike up. Your build looks fine for the most part. The monsters in dungeons may simply need a little retuning but you could try changing a few points in your build to see if it helps.
You may want to consider dropping some of the points in Paladin and picking up some more of the early points in Warlord. I don't have trouble keeping aggro on multiple mobs without Paladin's Reprisal, so I would drop that. I also don't think that Karmic Resolution is worth the point investment (at least at that level). I don't know how hard your Retaliation and Disarming Counterblow hit, but I'll be generous and say that mine hit for 150. 30% of that would be 45. That's a pretty insignificant amount of healing compared to the damage I take and definitely not worth five points, in my opinion.
I don't think Martial Shield is worth spending the point in (yet). With all the abilities I'm constantly using anyway, Attack Point generation is hardly a concern of mine.
That frees up seven points so far that you can spend in Warlord. First I would max out Intimidating before Enhanced Dodge. If you and your healer think that you're simply taking too much damage to heal through when you fail to avoid attacks then adding more avoidance isn't really going to solve the problem. It will occur a little less frequently but it will still occur and it will suck just as much when it does. I would recommend focusing on HP and mitigation to make sure that you can survive that worst cast scenario of unavoided attacks. Once you and your healer are comfortable with the amount of HP and mitigation you have, then start adding more avoidance .
However, if you do max Enhanced Dodge first, at least consider this: I don't know how much armor you have or how much is needed for 1% mitigation, but maxing out Intimidating may actually provide a higher percentage of mitigation than 10% more armor. If you aren't going to max out both Powerful Countenance and Intimidating, check to see which gives more mitigation before spending your points in Warlord. This would easily be done by looking at how much mitigation you have from armor currently and then checking to see how much you have after resetting your souls. If you lose less than 5% mitigation, max Intimidating first.
Last edited by Ecto-1; 02-07-2011 at 02:04 PM.
I also have a pally tank and have the same sentiment. Though my toon is at level 21, it seems he is very squishy. I recently ran Iron Tombs (this am) and died approximately 10 times during the run. This is the spec I ran with:
I focused on keeping 100% uptime of aggressive block (+10% block), pacifying strike (-5% damage) and empowering strike (+armor). In terms of gear, I have the rare belt, shield and MH from Iron Tombs and stack plate armor with +str/+end. That being said, I feel I am more than adequately geared for the instance, but I still feel squishy.
I recently ran through a rift and tanked a level 15 elite and was rapidly disposed of within, I would say, 15 seconds. Granted I had no heals, but I felt that, even though the enemy was an elite I should have been able to handle it, given I was 5 levels above it.
I was testing my tanking on the big guys wandering The Foul Cascade
i was lvl 34, and had a 29 rogue tank in the group.
The rogue took less damage AND had cd:s that made him pretty much immune to damage.
I had better gear, 5 levels higher. This aint right.
I went dps this dungeon and he tanked.
my build was pretty similar to urs, just somewhat more in reaver.
Last edited by thehelios; 02-07-2011 at 03:53 PM.
I had a very similar build to yours except i added both "weapon blow" and "Imposing" from the warlord tree. At times i did feel i was taking too much damage. However, at others i did just fine. From what i could garner, i was taking more dmg from NPC casters then NPC melle.
A key for me was trying to keep all melle mobs engaged first, and keep casters cc'd for last.
The reason, using the fast CD disarm skill did wonders for my damage mitigation. One would think this skill looks to be primarily for a PvP build. Yet it works really well in PvE too.
I suspect with a few more points into VK for some further spell mitigation or geared with some better resistances and it night balance out fine. Just wont know until I level up more.
I think one misconception that has not been directly addressed is that a 10% increase in block might not be a straight 5% boost to your chance to block but a 5% boost to your block stat ie 120*.05 + 120 which gives you around a gain of six. A factor of plus to results in a boost of around 1.5%. The same could be true of doge making armor (average being about 3.5k) and stright mitigation much better.
Sword of Telara
Its not really hard to see if you mouse over the stats in your character sheet.. Every one of those defensive things have a stat % attached.. Parry (innate chance), Dodge (innate chance) and Block (only if you have a shield equipped or that PvP soul skill)..
Add all those percentages up, and regardless of whats where, that is your total percentage of avoiding or neutralizing a blow.. At one time I made a paladin Warlord Rift spec that had around a 25-30% chance to block ( more with aggressive block), 9-10 % Parry and a 15% chance to dodge (with avatar of wind and warlord dodge spec)...
Add that up.. I was avoiding or mitigating damage over 50% of the time... NOTE: This is physical and avoidable attacks only.. Some attacks cannot be parried or dodged or blocked.. But Yeah, I was a force of nature against anything melee..
Originally Posted by Vember
This was a very informative page. great thread. kudos and such
if your taking to much dmg id go Paladin/Warlord/Reaver all three of those souls have DMG% reducing abilities. so your looking at 15% -dmg with only casting one ability. and reduce dmg under 30% health. Then go Paladin Warlord. Even the devs in the warrior trailer name that build Main Tank. So if you are trying to find build for tanking try out the devs prefer choice.