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Thread: Warrior Balancing - 4.5 and beyond

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    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
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    Default Warrior Balancing - 4.5 and beyond

    I appreciate all the work the new devs have put in to make Warrior better. While I welcome all the changes so far, I hope this isn't the end of it. There are still a few things that need to be ironed out. The outliers right now are the Eternal Weapon, Icy Burst and Turn the Blade. I've found way to many specs that abuse Turn the Blade + Icy Burst to force proc the eternal weapon. Most of these specs are 1 button as well and need to go. We just got rid of the warchanter and champion hybrids, we don't need another year of a different 1 button spec.

    Warrior Eternal Proc
    Instead of playing our specs, we're constantly doing some cheesy method to force proc our weapon. Cramming in off GCD abilities, icy burst spam and using turn the blade to get faster casts. This is not fun and it makes it much harder to balance specs as some benefit from it a lot more than others. Changing the proc will make specs less tedious to play and of course easier to balance. The proc should take the same route as the Legendary Tactics. A guaranteed damage proc every 3 seconds, it shouldn't change the way we play the specs.

    Paragon - Turn the Blade
    The damage penalty is too little. Here's some simple math.

    Base Damage - 10,000
    Base * (30/1.5) = 200,000 (without TTB)
    Base * 0.8 * 30 = 240,000 (with TTB)

    We get more swings in which results in more damage. Now add Icy Burst and Ethereal Strikes to this and the damage skyrockets. I have found way too many specs that utilise this. 1 Button Tempest, 2 Button Warlord, 1 Button Paragon, Riftblade even. We may as well make warrior have a 1 second gcd by default but we're not rogues.

    To fix this either increase the penalty and adjust Analyse Weakness to compensate or move this ability up entirely so other specs can't abuse it. This is way too much power for 8 points and paragon has some decent skills at the lower end of the tree. Teaching of the Five Rings, Weapon Familiarity, Grace of the Five Rings, Devoted Training. We don't have to sacrifice anything to gain Turn the Blade.

    Riftblade - Icy Burst
    This only requires two points in Riftblade. It's off GCD and the legendary has way too much power. Having two 1 handers drastically increases its damage. It's the cornerstone of many specs as of late.

    Remove auto attack integration from all of Riftblade. We shouldn't be forced to use 1 handers anyways. This will require changing Blade of the Ascened. Maybe have it cause 3pt bursts to trigger again after 3 seconds for a fraction of the damage. This way we're not 1pt spamming.

    Change Legendary Icy burst to trigger from damage and not auto attacks. Reduce the base damage on Icy Burst and have it bumped up higher in Riftblade.

    Tempest
    Apart from Beastmaster, Tempest is the only other spec that needs some help. Tempest has a decent 1 button spec that does comparable damage but it's a one button spec. Again it abuses Turn the Blade and Icy Burst, once those get changed, Tempest will need some work so lets start now.

    Its main issue right now is that the finishers don't do enough damage to be worth using. A shock pulse with a double pulse proc is more damage than a legendary skyfall.

    Skyfall has been weak ever since Tempest was first released and I think it needs to change now. Increase its damage higher in the tree.

    Arc needs to be off GCD or Its damage needs to be increased

    Electricity Cascade could be a builder, making it a useful for building attack points without triggering arc.

    Wavelength needs to lose the cooldown reduction. If the shorter cooldown is required then it should be a flat cooldown reduction of 30s or so. Keeping it to a minute is fine, change the effect to say Charged Pulse and Dual Pulse hit twice as hard.

    Delayed Pulse is pretty weak for the 30s cooldown it has.. The cooldown should be reduced to 15s this would make it easier to add to the rotation.

    Dual Pulse could use a bump in damage or have it trigger a buff to something. Say the next Skyfall within 5 seconds does double damage. This could solve two issues at once.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  2. #2
    DST
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    I agree with a lot here; but probably the most crucial point is our Eternal Weapon proc.

    It's wonky (a lot of warrior abilities actually fight against it by giving us power - like Legendary Ready Posture on Warlord) and usually requires some workarounds that shouldn't necessarily be a part of our DPS rotations (like Jolt (healing ability) from Tempest).

    As someone else mentioned, and put it really well, balancing warrior is difficult enough - but balancing around the way our Etneral Weapon procs? It's a nightmare.
    Last edited by DST; 07-15-2018 at 05:15 PM.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Default Warrior is weak

    You "appreciate all the work the new devs have put in to make Warrior better"? Warrior has been nerfed severely. I just re-installed my Paragon/Riftblade spec, and it's feeble, with or without Turn the Blade active. Reaver is not quite as bad as it was, but it's still not very good. AFAICT there does not seem to be a decent Warrior DPS spec now - if you know of one, I'd like to hear about it.

    I agree the Eternal Weapon proc is flaky.

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    Shadowlander
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    and who are you to tell everyone how to play the game we all love?

    If one button is how you like playing then some nefarious elite does not have the right to demand it gets removed. Why dont people who enjoy playing this game demand you dont get to play your 50 button rotation? I bet you would not enjoy that.

    Lets concentrate on getting balances and not demanding every style of play a nefarious leader doesn't agree with get removed.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenknight View Post
    You "appreciate all the work the new devs have put in to make Warrior better"? Warrior has been nerfed severely. I just re-installed my Paragon/Riftblade spec, and it's feeble, with or without Turn the Blade active. Reaver is not quite as bad as it was, but it's still not very good. AFAICT there does not seem to be a decent Warrior DPS spec now - if you know of one, I'd like to hear about it.

    I agree the Eternal Weapon proc is flaky.
    Riftblade, Warlord, Paragon. Sadly 1 Button Tempest does well too if 1 button paragon isn't working for you. If you play sub-par specs, you will see sub-par results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andysodandy View Post
    and who are you to tell everyone how to play the game we all love?

    If one button is how you like playing then some nefarious elite does not have the right to demand it gets removed. Why dont people who enjoy playing this game demand you dont get to play your 50 button rotation? I bet you would not enjoy that.

    Lets concentrate on getting balances and not demanding every style of play a nefarious leader doesn't agree with get removed.
    First of all, if there was a spec that had 50 buttons to press, I would be all over it. Secondly, why should 1 button specs outperform well played specs? I'm not saying we should eliminate them, but if I am doing a proper Tempest or Paragon rotation, I should see higher numbers. Instead we have the 1 button variants for both of these outperforming the rest. Those that want to be lazy and play easy specs and do sub-par dps, it's on them but those that put in the effort should be rewarded with better damage output.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem2k View Post
    Riftblade, Warlord, Paragon. Sadly 1 Button Tempest does well too if 1 button paragon isn't working for you. If you play sub-par specs, you will see sub-par results.


    First of all, if there was a spec that had 50 buttons to press, I would be all over it. Secondly, why should 1 button specs outperform well played specs? I'm not saying we should eliminate them, but if I am doing a proper Tempest or Paragon rotation, I should see higher numbers. Instead we have the 1 button variants for both of these outperforming the rest. Those that want to be lazy and play easy specs and do sub-par dps, it's on them but those that put in the effort should be rewarded with better damage output.

    I 100% agree a 1 button spec should be available but a 5 button spec should also be available and do 30% more dps.

    This will keep the casuals and proper players happy

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    In my opinion there should be no such thing as 1-3 button specs, is such a thing possible in the leading MMORPGs of the competition?

    I think 1-3 Buttons specs are only used nowadays because they achieve very good results and not because the players want such simplifications. MMORPGS are games you play long term so it's good if specs have a high learning curve. It is quite boring if you just copy a macro from the forum and the rest only depends on the equipment.

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    Who gets to decide what "proper play" is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cladari View Post
    Who gets to decide what "proper play" is?
    That is indeed a good question, think back 5 years before the ftp and being so casual friendly.

    Back then there was a lot more people who understood their specs, understanding what each talent point done and why as they tested each point as the specs were built..... I've been back 3 months after starting at closed alpha and leaving at 2013 and that seems to have gone.
    For the most part everyone running same copy n pasted builds ofc the devs are responsible for this leaving only one spec viable for raiding and many of the souls useless as pvp is gone.

    When was the last time you seen one of the specs below?

    dom, necro(CE lol) storm caller
    cabby deflier, sent, champion, warlord
    Assassin..... To just list a few of the has been souls from a past life...

    Willing to bet no one who's started playing in the last few years knows what the Assassin stun lock feels like.

    It's soo far away it's not even the same game.... Back to proper player question.... I think the games been dumbed down to the point its lowered the player skill to the point of not being able to recover after a large patch like the warrior one recently its really sad.... Until someone drip feeds a spec down.... Who ever does make that build needs a donation page setup or devs giving them a proper reward to reward them for their time and carrying the class and game.... It's going to get to the point where the devs just give the specs out.... (if they're not already doing this).......

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem2k View Post
    Riftblade, Warlord, Paragon. Sadly 1 Button Tempest does well too if 1 button paragon isn't working for you. If you play sub-par specs, you will see sub-par results.
    Paragon/Riftblade spec I was using wasn't one button, one of the things I liked about it, along with it worked. Doesn't now work.

    I started playing leveling with a customized Beastmaster spec - complex rotation, fun to play but no good for dungeons/raids. Added Tempest - didn't use macros, it was OP without them. Not surprised it got nerfed, but it was nerfed way too much. Had to go to one-button Reaver to keep up on raids - made play stupidly simple. Then it got nerfed, couldn't pull my weight anymore. Found a spec 61 Paragon / 12 Riftblade / 3 Warlord, 5 button rotation, worked pretty good. Nerfed. Losing Legendary Sergeant's Order really crippled it, Legendary Tactics firing once every 3 seconds doesn't come close to compensating. Going to try one button Tempest now, back to stupidly simple. Also have a one button Beastmaster spec to do support.

    I don't mind if one button specs are viable, but you shouldn't be forced to use one to be competitive. Mainly, though, I'm just tired of being jerked around. Trion can't manage to make small balance corrections, things go from being OP to completely useless. The initial version of tactics, from what I hear, was OP, but the version released is too weak. Hey. Trion - maybe for once you could split the difference, ever thought of trying that?

  11. #11
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cladari View Post
    Who gets to decide what "proper play" is?
    My take:

    Macros reduce how many decisions the player is required to make regarding ability usage. A player using a 1 button spec isn't actively deciding what abilities their character is using, and therefore dedicates no thought towards that specific part of gameplay. They can focus wholly on other aspects like mechanics and positioning, which obviously also makes those aspects easier to manage.

    With fewer macros and with fewer abilities in said macros, the player has to choose more quickly and more frequently which input to use and when, which increases difficulty both cognitively and physically (pressing buttons is hard, m'kay?). As such this also makes succeeding mechanical checks and good positioning more difficult. It is also a pretty commonly held opinion that increased difficulty should receive increased rewards.

    A prime example of this was the 1 button Marksman spec that was available in the beginning of 4.0. It was a fully ranged spec that had a sustain damage model rather than a bursty one, with above average mobility and above average dps. This meant that a player using this spec only had to focus on literally 1 thing: not standing in red. They didn't have to choose which abilities to use or when, they didn't have to maintain melee range to their target as it moved through the fight space, they didn't even have to worry about a burst cycle from their macro falling into an inopportune mechanical sequence of the encounter script causing them to lose dps. Smash 1 and don't die before your target.

    TL;DR: A "viable" spec is one that contributes enough to their assigned role that they aren't a burden to the rest of the group while completing content appropriate for their gear level. A "competitive" spec is one that with optimal gear and optimal player skill can compete (imagine that) for the highest individual contribution. People can choose how they play, but using 1 button is the easiest way to play and most players can accept the reasoning that rewards/output should scale equally with difficulty.
    Last edited by Stihl; 07-18-2018 at 02:16 AM.
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    Telaran Slaybae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    My take:

    Macros reduce how many decisions the player is required to make regarding ability usage. A player using a 1 button spec isn't actively deciding what abilities their character is using, and therefore dedicates no thought towards that specific part of gameplay. They can focus wholly on other aspects like mechanics and positioning, which obviously also makes those aspects easier to manage.

    With fewer macros and with fewer abilities in said macros, the player has to choose more quickly and more frequently which input to use and when, which increases difficulty both cognitively and physically (pressing buttons is hard, m'kay?). As such this also makes succeeding mechanical checks and good positioning more difficult. It is also a pretty commonly held opinion that increased difficulty should receive increased rewards.

    A prime example of this was the 1 button Marksman spec that was available in the beginning of 4.0. It was a fully ranged spec that had a sustain damage model rather than a bursty one, with above average mobility and above average dps. This meant that a player using this spec only had to focus on literally 1 thing: not standing in red. They didn't have to choose which abilities to use or when, they didn't have to maintain melee range to their target as it moved through the fight space, they didn't even have to worry about a burst cycle from their macro falling into an inopportune mechanical sequence of the encounter script causing them to lose dps. Smash 1 and don't die before your target.

    TL;DR: A "viable" spec is one that contributes enough to their assigned role that they aren't a burden to the rest of the group while completing content appropriate for their gear level. A "competitive" spec is one that with optimal gear and optimal player skill can compete (imagine that) for the highest individual contribution. People can choose how they play, but using 1 button is the easiest way to play and most players can accept the reasoning that rewards/output should scale equally with difficulty.
    Are you sure Everything you just wrote isn't in one of Moses 10 commandements? Because this is so true and golden

  13. #13
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    Thou shalt not use thy one button?

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    WTH is wrong with some of you. I hate MMO's that don't allow macro usage like 2 button play. I would rather enjoy the game/mechanics than have to keep looking at abilities/cooldowns and finger location. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

    No wonder I love FPS games... You It's aim and left mouse button to fire...

    Don't try to tell people how to play a game. This game is miserably boring at end game how it is. Let us try to find something to like about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenknight View Post
    You "appreciate all the work the new devs have put in to make Warrior better"? Warrior has been nerfed severely. I just re-installed my Paragon/Riftblade spec, and it's feeble, with or without Turn the Blade active. Reaver is not quite as bad as it was, but it's still not very good. AFAICT there does not seem to be a decent Warrior DPS spec now - if you know of one, I'd like to hear about it.

    I agree the Eternal Weapon proc is flaky.
    And I agree with Greenknight.........it's insane trying to get ANY decent soul in warrior now....... before 4.5 I pulled ave 900k-1M dps with moderate gear and next to final eternal weap. NOW---after ATTEMPTING to rebalance--I'm lucky to see 600k!!! Truthfully, since Warrior is about all I play due to RL matters--it makes me reconsider hanging in.

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