+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32
Like Tree3Likes

Thread: Re-balance Beastmaster

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    233

    Default Re-balance Beastmaster

    The One Button Beastmaster is parsing at 220k, and 61 Archon is Parsing at ~175k . In the past there were calls for Beastmaster to have higher dps due to its complexity, and because it's a melee spec. It's no longer a difficult spec to manage, and the difference between ranged and melee should not be that great. When it was there were calls for reworking Archon as a support class. Accordingly Archon dps should be improved, or Beastmaster re-balanced.

  2. #2
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    The One Button Beastmaster is parsing at 220k, and 61 Archon is Parsing at ~175k . In the past there were calls for Beastmaster to have higher dps due to its complexity, and because it's a melee spec. It's no longer a difficult spec to manage, and the difference between ranged and melee should not be that great. When it was there were calls for reworking Archon as a support class. Accordingly Archon dps should be improved, or Beastmaster re-balanced.
    I wonder why this wasn't a big deal when the 1 button archon was doing more dps than the super hard to manage beastmaster for the past 5 years straight from 35m away... Now clearly it's very important and we have to fix this serious imbalance problem.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 03-09-2017 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    233

    Default Mhm

    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    I wonder why this wasn't a big deal when the 1 button archon was doing more dps than the super hard to manage beastmaster for the past 5 years straight from 35m away... Now clearly it's very important and we have to fix this serious imbalance problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    Every support class has its own niche, bards have heals oracles get shields bm has utility and defensive cooldowns and chon has high damage. If chon was say providing multiple niches then I'd agree and call it overpowered but that's not the case here.

    The only reason BMs are less desirable is because it's a dot spec and you get punished for playing dot specs improperly. If I had to guess I'd say you're an average warrior and don't micromanage your dots well and that is why you are dissatisfied with the soul. I have seen decent BMs put up very respectable numbers in fights that allow/favor them. Ive also seen those same players say "****" in TS during a boss fight and then watched their numbers plummet as they then spent the next 6-8 gcds making up for that mistake and reapplying their dots.

    I'm going to agree with people and say take your warrior qq back on over to the warrior sections and figure out why you dumb plate wearers keep getting warlock like dot specs That you clearly can't manage and let the divine clothies have their warlocks to themselves.

    On a side note I'm sorry paragonfury forces you to bring warrior issues into the Mage discussion forum.
    One support spec shouldn't be totally dominant, the matter was addressed as part of the current re-balancing effort, and if it's to re-evaluated now is the time before active raiding commences. That it took Trion five years to address any prior disparity is not a pretext to ignore it now. The issue was debated in detail when Harbchon was eliminated. The discussion can be reviewed in detail in the following thread.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...bust-spec.html

    But the underlying objection was the spec was too easy to play relative to the dps reward, and made one spec dominant.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    493

    Default

    I think the real issue is that BM is kinda borked. While I'm no fan of 10 button piano concerto specs, 1 button BM with that kinda dps for support seems super cheesy. Making BM somewhat more complex to play / less reliant on pet dps should help to put the numbers more in line with Chon.
    Last edited by Boxsmith; 03-09-2017 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    233

    Default Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    I think the real issue is that BM is kinda borked. While I'm no fan of 10 button piano concerto specs, 1 button BM with that kinda dps for support seems super cheesy. Making BM somewhat more complex to play / less reliant on pet dps should help to put the numbers more in line with Chon.
    The effort vs reward should be somewhat comparable.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    378

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    The One Button Beastmaster is parsing at 220k, and 61 Archon is Parsing at ~175k . In the past there were calls for Beastmaster to have higher dps due to its complexity, and because it's a melee spec. It's no longer a difficult spec to manage, and the difference between ranged and melee should not be that great. When it was there were calls for reworking Archon as a support class. Accordingly Archon dps should be improved, or Beastmaster re-balanced.
    You won't use a BM or Archon for the new raids anyways so it's not really a huge issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Klutch817 View Post
    "I don't like what you're saying, so I'mma get triggered and shame you somehow." ~RIFT Forums, 2016

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Also, don't forget that Legendary Flaring power is 20% dmg boost, while BM only has the "old" version of +15% AP/SP. Meaning that Archon would boost the raid dps quite a bit more than BM.

    So, if you will actually go for BM or Archon as the one support, and depening on how many tanks and healers you have, Archon can easily win with providing higher raid dps even with lower personal dps ;).
    <Tyael@Gelidra>
    ...Stack on 8...

  8. #8
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    493

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    Also, don't forget that Legendary Flaring power is 20% dmg boost, while BM only has the "old" version of +15% AP/SP. Meaning that Archon would boost the raid dps quite a bit more than BM.

    So, if you will actually go for BM or Archon as the one support, and depening on how many tanks and healers you have, Archon can easily win with providing higher raid dps even with lower personal dps ;).
    The math might not check out here though. So based on the poster, BM is ahead of archon by about 45k. We'll say 50k because 1 buttons perform consistently closer to dummy parses than actual specs.

    Let's assume raid dps is at about 2,000,000. Let's also assume 5 minutes of combat, meaning flaring power can only be used once. The differential in support capability is approximately 5% (assuming command to attack got its duration buffed as well?). 5% of 2 million is 100k, HOWEVER that 100k is only gained in 1 of the 5 minutes of combat, so really it's only a 20k gain over BM. This would be much higher for a 6 or 7 minute fight because you could flaring again, but even then it only approaches the 50k gain you get simply by playing 1 button BM.

    For a 6 minute fight: 2 minutes of flaring of 6 mins = 33% uptime of the 100k gain = 33k gain, still can't touch the 50k gap.

    So, for a melee friendly fight, if nothing changes, it will still make more sense to use a BM than a Chon....

  9. #9
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,254

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    Also, don't forget that Legendary Flaring power is 20% dmg boost, while BM only has the "old" version of +15% AP/SP. Meaning that Archon would boost the raid dps quite a bit more than BM.
    Legendary Flaring Power is 10%, not 20%.
    What makes it better is that it last 60 seconds instead of 30 seconds. The difference between Legendary Flaring Power and normal Flaring Power/Command to Attack isn't nearly as big as people make it seems.
    First off, the 10% damage buff is additive with other buffs, making it less of an impact, especially on specs that have a lot of damage increase buffs. A 15% AP/SP is multiplicative for the most part has there is very few specs that have AP/SP buffs, making it stronger than a 10% damage buff on a majority of specs. It also coincide with DPS cooldowns and last long enough to get through all cooldowns. The second thirty seconds from Legendary Flaring Power is usually the downtime for most DPS specs where they have no more burst to use and are waiting on their 1 minutes CDs.

    So all things consider, while Legendary Flaring Power is more total DPS, the difference is minimal.
    Last edited by Snap; 03-09-2017 at 01:59 PM.
    Cheesecakesandwich - Mage 70 | Wrecking - Warrior 70
    Italiansausage - Cleric 70 | Snaplemouton - Rogue 67
    Primalsandwich - Primalist 70
    I'm a grand connoisseur of the most delicate dish known as the poutine.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    233

    Default Additional Observation

    The parse for Archon was with Elementalist as the off soul, with upcoming nerfs to Elementalist the dps disparity will be greater.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer SecondBass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    218

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    I'm beyond tired of the my spec doesn't do as well as your spec, so yours needs to be nerfed meta.
    I don't even have anything to add, that's just perfect.
    The cockroaches won.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajib View Post
    I hate to brag but am one of those pro warriors who tries to push things to the limit, broken so many records
    4.1 Champion 4.1 Overlord 4.1 Riftblade 4.1 Reaver 4.1 Tempest 4.1 Warpest
    3.7 Beastmaster 3.7 Liberator 3.7 Paladin 3.7 Void Knight

  12. #12
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,400

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Legendary Flaring Power is 10%, not 20%.
    Legendary Flaring Power is actually a bit over 18% Jotunn and I worked out. Forgot where the calcs are. But it's way over it's tooltip / description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    The parse for Archon was with Elementalist as the off soul, with upcoming nerfs to Elementalist the dps disparity will be greater.
    I can parse non Ele Archon at about 135 - 140k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aayden View Post
    You won't use a BM or Archon for the new raids anyways so it's not really a huge issue.
    The maths doesn't seem to add up for flaring and supports I know, I've looked at it a few times. But having a support even in a 10 man really does add a lot. On me alone, I seem to get about an extra 80k DPS minimum as Warlock on Hexathel. Multiply that by at least 6 and you're ahead by using a support.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondBass View Post
    I don't even have anything to add, that's just perfect.
    Lol nice find!
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    233

    Default And ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondBass View Post
    I don't even have anything to add, that's just perfect.
    Actually, improving Archon dps is the preferred outcome, it would be more beneficial overall to the raiding community as Beastmaster may or may not always be available, and the lack should not be a major penalty.

    The option was included in the original post. It's ironic how opinions change depending on whose spec is being questioned, but in the original debate the meta was do away with Harbchon because of the way effort vs reward was scaled with no mention or emphasis on improving Beastmaster to parity with Harbchon as an option. The original post offered both as options. In fact, Beastmaster should parse higher because it's a melee spec, but the difference between the two should be a reasonable percentage. So can everyone agree buffing Archon is the best path forward?
    Last edited by Gunian; 03-09-2017 at 04:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,400

    Default

    A while ago, on Discord I think, one of the devs said the damage Archon was doing was about where they wanted a DPS support (chon/BM) to be. Now I'm not sure if they were referring to the 160k or the 120k Archon at the time. This was probably in December but nothing's really changed since then except a nerf to the ele chon.

    In my opinion, DPS support needs to be about 450k DPS behind a full DPS to make the tradeoff an actual tradeoff for 10 mans. I actually think BM is too high as there's not really any specs coming close to 670k anymore.

    However, previously we never had this tradeoff as it was always a good idea to have a support. I think Trion is actually trying to move towards a tradeoff situation, where you have a bit more choice in your role makeup. Groups that can time cooldowns will benefit from having a support. Groups that can't will actually be hindered by having a support. If they are going this route, intended or not, I think it's a great idea.
    Last edited by Archyface; 03-09-2017 at 05:01 PM.
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

  15. #15
    Telaran Biscuitsyum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    53

    Default

    I may not be an exceptional dps like a lot of these guys commenting, BUT I have spent hours and hours parsing chon over the last few weeks. Along with many others help, we found a solid spec. Mind you, mage is my alt, and in my greens(no upgraded frags) I did 200k in QF. In hindsight, I saw where I can improve that to around 215-220k. With a geared mage, I think 250-275 is very possible.

    Where I can provide a unique perspective here is that warrior is my main. I don't play one button anything, and I never will. I absolutely hate playing the current bm spec, and I now have aids from it. After all my chon parsing/testing, I can honestly tell you that they aren't that far apart, you are probably just playing the wrong spec! NON ONE BUTTON BM will always beat chon, as it should. I'm not to sure one button does beat proper chon.

    Also, I think raid dps is higher with chon. That's more of a hunch, and I haven't done the real math or anything.

    Just my two cents....
    *Fancy signature graphics followed by fancy looking Fonts with all the colors*
    BISCULTS@WOLFSBANE, GRAYSKULL WARRIOR LEAD AND LIFE COACH
    The Real Rift Community Discord!

    "I'll give YOU a punishing blow" - DarkDaemon 2016

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts