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Thread: Re-balance Beastmaster

  1. #16
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    Does your spec use Elemental Forces? (if so it's only good for another 3 weeks)

    What have you been parsing on? Sounds like you've been doing it on a debuffed boss (Hexathel). Illuminate / Pillaging Stone really starts to make a difference when it's not just you.

    What does your spec do on a dimension dummy? (note I'm not asking you for your spec. grats if you found a good one )

    And yeah raid DPS is higher with a chon as Legendary Flaring Power is better than CtA
    Last edited by Archyface; 03-09-2017 at 05:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    Does your spec use Elemental Forces? (if so it's only good for another 3 weeks)
    If you say so

    Illuminate is a huge gain. On a dummy I think I hit 175ish? With terrible gear, on live
    Last edited by Biscuitsyum; 03-09-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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  3. #18
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    If I say so...

    Then what do you parse with your Ele spec on the dimension dummy on PTS?

    175-200k is totally doable on Live.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    The math might not check out here though. So based on the poster, BM is ahead of archon by about 45k. We'll say 50k because 1 buttons perform consistently closer to dummy parses than actual specs.

    Let's assume raid dps is at about 2,000,000. Let's also assume 5 minutes of combat, meaning flaring power can only be used once. The differential in support capability is approximately 5% (assuming command to attack got its duration buffed as well?). 5% of 2 million is 100k, HOWEVER that 100k is only gained in 1 of the 5 minutes of combat, so really it's only a 20k gain over BM. This would be much higher for a 6 or 7 minute fight because you could flaring again, but even then it only approaches the 50k gain you get simply by playing 1 button BM.

    For a 6 minute fight: 2 minutes of flaring of 6 mins = 33% uptime of the 100k gain = 33k gain, still can't touch the 50k gap.

    So, for a melee friendly fight, if nothing changes, it will still make more sense to use a BM than a Chon....
    Here's my counter example: from what i know the new 10 man pretty much needs 1 tank and 1 healer, so if we add support that leaves us with 7 dps. From the testing i've done and the last iteration of warrior spreadsheet, the average dps gain is around 3% per dps player (Legendary FP vs CtA).

    Lets say you have average dpsers, with all the buffs provided by one support and foods, etc. they should be able to squeeze around 400k dps with that, or on the low side at least 300k. Now on average these med-low dpsers would get a combined total of about 84-63k dps, depending on how much dps they can suqeze out.

    This is just rough estimates, especially since imo dpser should be able to pull 300k+ with just himself alone, and you might have 6 of them instead of 7, etc. But it shows that Legendary Flaring Power has a nice gain over non-Legendary version. I also didn't count the dps of non dpsers to it as well. Not to mention CtA lasts only 30s while Legendardy FP lasts 1 min!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Legendary Flaring Power is 10%, not 20%.
    What makes it better is that it last 60 seconds instead of 30 seconds. The difference between Legendary Flaring Power and normal Flaring Power/Command to Attack isn't nearly as big as people make it seems.
    First off, the 10% damage buff is additive with other buffs, making it less of an impact, especially on specs that have a lot of damage increase buffs. A 15% AP/SP is multiplicative for the most part has there is very few specs that have AP/SP buffs, making it stronger than a 10% damage buff on a majority of specs. It also coincide with DPS cooldowns and last long enough to get through all cooldowns. The second thirty seconds from Legendary Flaring Power is usually the downtime for most DPS specs where they have no more burst to use and are waiting on their 1 minutes CDs.

    So all things consider, while Legendary Flaring Power is more total DPS, the difference is minimal.
    Here's to the day when tooltips in Rift will actually say what the skill does right! Legendary FP is a 20% dmg boost, not 10% as the tooltip suggests. It also falls into the special category of "active raid damage buffs" and there's only 3 skills in this category: Volcanic Bomb/Call of Savagery, Lava Field (or equivalent) and Legendary FP. And inside this category these three are additive, meaning they will boost the players dps by 1.4 if all applied, or 1.2 and 1.25 if LF and L.FP are applied seperately. (Since 1.05 is the base as Volcanic Bomb should be up all the time). So yeah, while the effective gain with all three buffs applied is not excatly 20%, it's not that much smaller either.

    Also you are wrong on the AP/SP buff. Normal FP or CtA is an additive buff in the same category as all other AP/SP soul buffs, meaning the more of them you have, the lesser the bennefit of the raid cd is. And most specs have at least some +x% AP/SP soul talents picked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    Legendary Flaring Power is actually a bit over 18% Jotunn and I worked out. Forgot where the calcs are. But it's way over it's tooltip / description.
    The reason why you got 18% is probably because you were comparing ability hits on a dummy. When Trion changed the 5% dmg variance on some of the skills to 1%, they also managed to add this variance to every single skill in game, which tooltips of course don't tell you. If you compare the tooltip numbers with FP on and off you will see pretty much exactly 1.2 modifier.


    To sum it all up, Legendary Flaring Power is probably a lot higher raid wide dmg increase than most of you guys realize. The question of pure Archon vs BM dps will of course depend on your raid setup and dps, but with a capable group the benefit of the Archon will easily outshy the personal dps of a BM.
    Last edited by Jotunn; 03-10-2017 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Forgot about Volcanic Bomb

  5. #20
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    Well, you guys make one big mistake when you compare support with DPS numbers. Today it make a big difference if you have a support class or not in raids. The simple truth is, that we burst today way higher then in the past because legendarys. To make it simple i take numbers which are easy to calculate.

    DPS 300'000 (Burst for 10seconds with 800'000DPS and for 50 Seconds with 200'000). It now not simple give you 20% more dps and you get 360'000 dps for a short time. It give you for the short time when you make 800'000 dps 20% more. This are not simple 60'000 more, it is 160'000. But you can not use it every burst.

    You still think a few % more raid dps not get very easy over the 50k a bm make more then you?

    Arbosch Bloodforge
    Last edited by arbosch; 03-10-2017 at 02:29 AM.

  6. #21
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    I really don't think there's much to argue in this thread.

    From purely raid min/max stand point, out of the existing 4 supports it's archon all the way.

    The other supports should only be used if your healer(s) aren't cutting it. Or in some extreme case dropping a healer completely then using other supports other than Archon would make sense.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 03-10-2017 at 04:00 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    Here's my counter example: from what i know the new 10 man pretty much needs 1 tank and 1 healer, so if we add support that leaves us with 7 dps. From the testing i've done and the last iteration of warrior spreadsheet, the average dps gain is around 3% per dps player (Legendary FP vs CtA).

    Lets say you have average dpsers, with all the buffs provided by one support and foods, etc. they should be able to squeeze around 400k dps with that, or on the low side at least 300k. Now on average these med-low dpsers would get a combined total of about 84-63k dps, depending on how much dps they can suqeze out.

    This is just rough estimates, especially since imo dpser should be able to pull 300k+ with just himself alone, and you might have 6 of them instead of 7, etc. But it shows that Legendary Flaring Power has a nice gain over non-Legendary version. I also didn't count the dps of non dpsers to it as well. Not to mention CtA lasts only 30s while Legendardy FP lasts 1 min!


    .
    Yeah, if they didn't increase the duration of CtA that kinda throws a wrench in all my calculations anyway. But if CtA actually lasted a minute, BM would be the undisputed choice.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    Yeah, if they didn't increase the duration of CtA that kinda throws a wrench in all my calculations anyway. But if CtA actually lasted a minute, BM would be the undisputed choice.
    Even with the increase from 30s to 1 min, the gap would only become slightly smaller. Archon would still win in most cases easily.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    Even with the increase from 30s to 1 min, the gap would only become slightly smaller. Archon would still win in most cases easily.
    yep like I said. I don't know why archon's personal dps is such an urgent issue that needs to be buffed right now instantly...

    Even if archon was doing half the beastmaster dps, a competent raid lead would still use archon over any other support in raid anyways...

    Again the only reason not to use an archon is if your healers suck, or you want attempt to run 1 less healer than the raid is designed for,

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    Even with the increase from 30s to 1 min, the gap would only become slightly smaller. Archon would still win in most cases easily.
    I was trying to work out the math to test this assertion, but then i realized that to account for burst periods like Bloodforge suggested, it would require lots and lots more math than I did in my previous post. Maybe I'll do it later lol.

    Really though, it just comes down to BM's 50k advantage over X minutes that flaring / CtA isn't happening being more total damage than whatever dps is gained in that first minute by using flaring over CtA. From what math I did, the burst would have to be pretty damn high to overcome a vastly larger non-burst period of pure 50k more dps.

    Of course, this is all a "what if". Since Flaring lasts twice as long, Chon wins even for long fights. It makes sense that it does less dps, though I still think BM shouldn't be 1 buttonable since archon takes at least 4 or 5.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    If I say so...

    Then what do you parse with your Ele spec on the dimension dummy on PTS?

    175-200k is totally doable on Live.
    Box gear and cape, no frags. This is what our spec does on PTS. I think this is still higher than the harb variant? Also, this spec doesn't parse well because of the "illuminate/pillaging hits like a truck in raid" factor. I think that was maybe 2 or 3 20 stack pillagings in 4 minutes.

    Re-balance Beastmaster-2017-03-10_132557.jpg
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  12. #27
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    Just got back home... but how come you don't use Patron's Rage? Would have thought it'd be just better than some skills in there

    This is about what I get on my Harb /Arbiter, albeit with better gear. Assuming your parse is from a non debuffed dummy.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    Actually, improving Archon dps is the preferred outcome, it would be more beneficial overall to the raiding community as Beastmaster may or may not always be available, and the lack should not be a major penalty.
    This thread really shows your ignorance.

    It's beastmaster that's dead and not preferred in raiding, not Archon. Despite a large DPS difference on a dummy, there's several reasons that we would use an Archon over a BM even on live:

    - Ranged over melee and better target swapping
    - Legendary Flaring is so much stronger than Command to Attack
    - Short encounters amplify the effects of and differences between Flaring and CtA
    - No differences in the power of defensive abilities (BM has a bit of healing, but that's fluff)
    - Slightly better debuffs
    - More utility (point to point, a more reliable purge, AOE cleanse, mental flare)
    - Better raid scaling (legendary illuminate) - BM has almost no difference between being in raid

    Beastmaster's main selling points are that it's slightly faster (by 1 or 2 GCDs) in initially applying debuffs and getting up buffs if you play correctly and Enrage doesn't require you to stand in anything.

    We do not want Archon to be close to BM in DPS. Archon cannot be anywhere near Beastmaster if Beastmaster is to have any kind of raid viability. Legendary Flaring Power makes Archon king even if it has half of BM's DPS.

    Also, people that go 'support is dead because DPS does so much more' are silly. An Archon/BM can do literally 0 DPS and still be a raid DPS gain in a 10 man in most situations.
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 03-17-2017 at 07:55 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    This thread really shows your ignorance.

    It's beastmaster that's dead and not preferred in raiding, not Archon. Despite a large DPS difference on a dummy, there's several reasons that we would use an Archon over a BM even on live:

    - Ranged over melee and better target swapping
    - Legendary Flaring is so much stronger than Command to Attack
    - Short encounters amplify the effects of and differences between Flaring and CtA
    - No differences in the power of defensive abilities (BM has a bit of healing, but that's fluff)
    - Slightly better debuffs
    - More utility (point to point, a more reliable purge, AOE cleanse, mental flare)
    - Better raid scaling (legendary illuminate) - BM has almost no difference between being in raid

    Beastmaster's main selling points are that it's slightly faster (by 1 or 2 GCDs) in initially applying debuffs and getting up buffs if you play correctly and Enrage doesn't require you to stand in anything.

    We do not want Archon to be close to BM in DPS. Archon cannot be anywhere near Beastmaster if Beastmaster is to have any kind of raid viability. Legendary Flaring Power makes Archon king even if it has half of BM's DPS.

    Also, people that go 'support is dead because DPS does so much more' are silly. An Archon/BM can do literally 0 DPS and still be a raid DPS gain in a 10 man in most situations.
    First line in what Dark said.

    If you drop the DPS down of a BM to an Archon, then you'd have to give them Legendary version's of Command to Attack and Spotter's Call as compensation. Not to mention, something that allows them to cast the 12'sih buffs they need to cast with a single button press. At which time the Archon could then be irreversibly declared dead. But until BM gets the goodies an Archon gets, you'll continue to be the king/queen for the 6th year in a row.

    In my guild, the Beastmaster gives us 1000 times more DPS and Support than the Archon. Why? The two they allow to play Archon spend far more time being dead, from standing in stupid, than alive. The real kicker, outside of a tank or healer, they rez one of those two before any one else.
    Last edited by Niphridil; 03-17-2017 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niphridil View Post
    First line in what Dark said.

    If you drop the DPS down of a BM to an Archon, then you'd have to give them Legendary version's of Command to Attack and Spotter's Call as compensation. Not to mention, something that allows them to cast the 12'sih buffs they need to cast with a single button press. At which time the Archon could then be irreversibly declared dead. But until BM gets the goodies an Archon gets, you'll continue to be the king/queen for the 6th year in a row.

    In my guild, the Beastmaster gives us 1000 times more DPS and Support than the Archon. Why? The two they allow to play Archon spend far more time being dead, from standing in stupid, than alive. The real kicker, outside of a tank or healer, they rez one of those two before any one else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    Actually, improving Archon dps is the preferred outcome, it would be more beneficial overall to the raiding community as Beastmaster may or may not always be available, and the lack should not be a major penalty.

    The option was included in the original post. It's ironic how opinions change depending on whose spec is being questioned, but in the original debate the meta was do away with Harbchon because of the way effort vs reward was scaled with no mention or emphasis on improving Beastmaster to parity with Harbchon as an option. The original post offered both as options. In fact, Beastmaster should parse higher because it's a melee spec, but the difference between the two should be a reasonable percentage. So can everyone agree buffing Archon is the best path forward?
    Actually reading the full thread response is a good thing for both you and Darkdeamon rather than being dismissive and calling people ignorant. But when it's your sacred cow being gored ..... Btw you might want to recruit some Mages that don't stand in poo.

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