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Thread: Reaver Nerf #2

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Reaver Nerf #2

    not long ago, Reavers were nerfed, (Viral made immobile) and every other class could out-dps them. Reaver was then given back Viral mobility, and power to keep up with other classes. I heard Nothing but animosity about reavers until SF came out. All the while, I kept seeing Mages, rogues & clerics and ST specialist warriors, as the top dps'rs.
    I always thought, that Reaver was a Utility class, having both Aoe and ST abilities, but not the highest in either one. I don't mind Not being the top dps, but having sufficient dps to be a good addition for group/raids is a must to me. otherwise , I would have to commit to delete, unlike after the first nerf, where I learned to suffer / being punished for choosing to be a Plate wearing utility Fighter class.
    I Don't want to wear a dress and toss deadly spitballs from 1000 feet away, or have a God heal me faster than the mob can damage my chain. Or Be able to Critical damage every other attack, and dodge most all incoming damage. And I don't dare use a stupid tank pet when theres a Tank class Quarterbacking the rift.
    I want , as most do, a balanced dps system.. where you wont be the target of no-life Troll jokes in chat, or never being chosen for a raid / group because of my class. but would also be horrified if it was possible someone can Buy their way to being the top dps .
    If I played a mage, or cleric, or rogue.. and continuously in the top 3 dps, I would bet all my months-long earned and cash paid useless pre SF Tier 2/3 gear people will again cry for a Hanging Judge, as THEY'RE class that they have played since dawn of rift, is a few points below the top. Seems to me its a Class / Role rascist game.
    Anyhoo. I will play my castrated Reaver, and if he is snubbed for any raid / group invites because of his class, then it only proves to me I'm right.
    Hope the Elite-ists out there learn to appreciated other classes, and not trash-troll talk any new player that wants to play a reaver or less popular class.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
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    I do have to admit though that I am incredibly pleased that we were nerfed to be brought in line with the other classes that pull double or triple our numbers now....

  3. #3
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    Meh, they've been nerfing warriors since 1.0. Nothing new there. Was nice to be top of the dps meter. I notice they havent touched primalist, who can pull nearly 150k more than reavers sustained with like one or two buttons
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  4. #4
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    This is the same exact banter that took place last time. Listen, Reaver was given a particular set of skills (insert "Taken" reference meme here) that put it too high on the "things it can do well" list.

    Because of that, Reaver absolutely should NOT be top ST dps, ridiculous cleave dps, ridiculous AoE dps, and almost 100% mobile. Reaver should be in the category of 70% ST baseline and 70% AoE baseline, compared with its Champion counterpart. That would be a balance. Want pure AoE trash clearing goodness? use Champ. Want Pure ST boss smashing goodness? use Paragon or Tempest. Want a mix of the two at a disadvantage for having both capabilities? Use reaver. This idea is as old as the precursor to mmos, table top Dungeons and Dragons itself. If you want to hybridize yourself, you'll gain a diverse skillset, but you'll lose power in those individual skillsets for diversifying. If this werent the case, you'd just have a person that had full power fighter and full power mages running around dunking on the dungeons, an making there be no reason to play a singular class.

    There were reavers out there knocking on 400k ST's door. Reaver is a ranged class, with zero mobility issues, and passive cleave as well as awesome AoE. This is the EXACT argument as last time, there needs to be a risk/reward advantage/drawback to using these souls, or no one will use anything else. In NT, people were literally balancing their raid teams around having as many reavers as they could because they were that strong and versatile. When they nerfed it, a LOT of guilds lost progression on bosses because they relied so heavily on 1 soul out of the 46 i think available at the time.

    I get that you folks like reaver. The fantasy behind it is cool, the death based warrior slinging dots and death based magic. Good deal. However stop asking to keep your stupidly broken overpowered cancer of soul in the state it was pre-nerf. You have got to take a look at the big picture.

    There is a lot of work Trion has to do for balance, but that was a step in the right direction.
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  5. #5
    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    Because of that, Reaver absolutely should NOT be top ST dps, ridiculous cleave dps, ridiculous AoE dps, and almost 100% mobile. Reaver should be in the category of 70% ST baseline and 70% AoE baseline, compared with its Champion counterpart. That would be a balance. Want pure AoE trash clearing goodness? use Champ. Want Pure ST boss smashing goodness? use Paragon or Tempest.
    You can't look at the Reaver nerf without taking into context other warrior souls and the top DPS of other callings.

    Pure ST boss smashing goodness with Paragon or Tempest? Don't make me laugh. They're still below Reaver right now. 70% AOE baseline? Reaver has less cleave than Tempest, Riftblade or Warlord at the moment. Far from moving towards the ranged AOE DPS soul that warriors lack, it's just been guttered.

    As disgusting as it was to have Reaver be our top DPS soul, we had few to no alternatives. Without Reaver, we have no effective ranged soul, no ranged AOE, no burst AOE that's effective on low HP mobs, and nothing that can compete with the likes of Runeshaper/Oracle and Elementalist-Pyro. Rogues have Tactician and Bladedancer at least, both of which were miraculously untouched despite being far more broken than Reaver was in PvP. Riftblade is okay, but it's a work in progress at best, requiring immense setup, specific weapon compositions, and is only 8-10% fire damage (very important in the current meta).

    My point is, you can't gutter a soul when there aren't any alternatives, especially when the damage wasn't even top. An excessive toolkit isn't gamebreaking. In NMT, Reaver was nerfed in 3.4. Paragon was brought up to par in 3.3, and Riftblade was buffed in 3.4. Tempest was also competitive. We had extremely playable, well balanced alternatives. Now, we have little.
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 12-02-2016 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    You can't look at the Reaver nerf without taking into context other warrior souls and the top DPS of other callings.

    Pure ST boss smashing goodness with Paragon or Tempest? Don't make me laugh. They're still below Reaver right now. 70% AOE baseline? Reaver has less cleave than Tempest, Riftblade or Warlord at the moment. Far from moving towards the ranged AOE DPS soul that warriors lack, it's just been guttered.

    As disgusting as it was to have Reaver be our top DPS soul, we had few to no alternatives. Without Reaver, we have no effective ranged soul, no ranged AOE, no burst AOE that's effective on low HP mobs, and nothing that can compete with the likes of Runeshaper/Oracle and Elementalist-Pyro. Rogues have Tactician and Bladedancer at least, both of which were miraculously untouched despite being far more broken than Reaver was in PvP. Riftblade is okay, but it's a work in progress at best, requiring immense setup, specific weapon compositions, and is only 8-10% fire damage (very important in the current meta).

    My point is, you can't gutter a soul when there aren't any alternatives, especially when the damage wasn't even top. An excessive toolkit isn't gamebreaking. In NMT, Reaver was nerfed in 3.4. Paragon was brought up to par in 3.3, and Riftblade was buffed in 3.4. Tempest was also competitive. We had extremely playable, well balanced alternatives. Now, we have little.
    No options? I'm sure you've seen these. I'm sure there is other theory craft out for other stuff now, but gimme a break, you arent the only one broken. 61 Sin is parsing a rough 8% below Marksman right now. Mage just finally got brought to the front after 2 weeks, and some of those changes still didnt put souls where they needed to be, Primalists got shafted pretty good, etc etc, I'm sure you read the forums/subreddits/crossevents, same as me.

    61 Riftblade

    61 Warlord

    Regardless, my point about the Paragon, Champion, Reaver thing was mostly to convey theory and how advantage/disadvantage needs to be there, or there is no reason to play other souls, not necessarily to proclaim that all classes in the game are balanced well.

    70% "AOE" baseline, where baseline is = top AoE dps for the class, i.e. Champion, or what SHOULD be champion, not cleave. This would be to account for it being ranged, and also having powerful single target abilities and utility. You're saying tempest has better AoE than Reaver does currently? I would seriously doubt that, unless there is a broken interaction with something. I'd guess it has something to do with Dire Corruption usage in the spec if that is seriously the case.

    Also, your entire post was framed as if "You didn't consider the other souls and other classes". No, I did, hence..

    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    There is a lot of work Trion has to do for balance, but that was a step in the right direction.
    As I said before, I get the frustration, as I did months ago when they gutted that terribly designed rework. That does not mean a broken one size fits all soul has a place in game balance. It needed to happen.

    Being one of the more prominent rift players, I'd hope you agree that it needed to die. Can you imagine if Bladedancer was parsing almost 400k Single target? How pissed would everyone be?

    ***EDIT*** Also, I missed the middle section I guess. Tactician got its Engine reduced from 350% to 225%. It just wasn't in the actual notes. So they did address that. Bladedancer in PVP still needs to be addressed. I would whole heartedly agree.
    Last edited by ChamberDown; 12-02-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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  7. #7
    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    You're saying tempest has better AoE than Reaver does currently?
    It does, by a significant amount now. This is because Tempest gain a lot of AOE with legendary Skyfall, and because it's not limited to three targets. Tempest still deals lower ST DPS by the way.

    Riftblade has its own, unique problems with weapon setup and massive build up. It ONLY parses well because some legendary powers don't work the way their tooltip states. Warlord is similar, yet still isn't high enough to be worth consideration. Warlord also has considerable problems with animation delay (particularly with 2H weapons) and has to obtain a finisher from another soul to offload attack points. Paragon, despite my efforts, still doesn't do enough DPS to be worth playing.

    I'm not saying the Reaver nerf shouldn't have happened. It was needed (although Reaver shouldn't have been this high in the first place), but it should have occurred with other soul changes. Last time, we had multiple other competitive options. Now, we have a single melee spec that's relies on broken interactions to be anywhere near competitive. I hesitate to even share anything about Riftblade, since it might be nerfed to the ground and then we'll have nothing instead of a broken bit of something.
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 12-02-2016 at 07:41 PM.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    I would have to agree with dark...as someone that plays main warrior.. i agree that reaver should have been nerfed to an extent as i was sustaining 400+k ST but they completely trashed it..i now only do around 180k meanwhile i cannot even keep up with locks or MM who are pulling well into the 350k range in greens with much crappier frags than i have.. we really have nothing else.. champ cannot keep up with other classes in AOE.. paragon is a joke.. warlord and riftblade just are not even close to other classes sustained dps..

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Chadak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    This is the same exact banter that took place last time. Listen, Reaver was given a particular set of skills (insert "Taken" reference meme here) that put it too high on the "things it can do well" list.

    Because of that, Reaver absolutely should NOT be top ST dps, ridiculous cleave dps, ridiculous AoE dps, and almost 100% mobile. Reaver should be in the category of 70% ST baseline and 70% AoE baseline, compared with its Champion counterpart. That would be a balance. Want pure AoE trash clearing goodness? use Champ. Want Pure ST boss smashing goodness? use Paragon or Tempest. Want a mix of the two at a disadvantage for having both capabilities? Use reaver. This idea is as old as the precursor to mmos, table top Dungeons and Dragons itself. If you want to hybridize yourself, you'll gain a diverse skillset, but you'll lose power in those individual skillsets for diversifying. If this werent the case, you'd just have a person that had full power fighter and full power mages running around dunking on the dungeons, an making there be no reason to play a singular class.

    There were reavers out there knocking on 400k ST's door. Reaver is a ranged class, with zero mobility issues, and passive cleave as well as awesome AoE. This is the EXACT argument as last time, there needs to be a risk/reward advantage/drawback to using these souls, or no one will use anything else. In NT, people were literally balancing their raid teams around having as many reavers as they could because they were that strong and versatile. When they nerfed it, a LOT of guilds lost progression on bosses because they relied so heavily on 1 soul out of the 46 i think available at the time.

    I get that you folks like reaver. The fantasy behind it is cool, the death based warrior slinging dots and death based magic. Good deal. However stop asking to keep your stupidly broken overpowered cancer of soul in the state it was pre-nerf. You have got to take a look at the big picture.

    There is a lot of work Trion has to do for balance, but that was a step in the right direction.
    This was not a step in the right direction.

    Reaver needed a nerf, not to be completely gutted.

    AoE max targets reduced from 8 to 3.

    That's a nerf? Lets remove 3/4 of your limbs and talk about things needing to happen, because you've already lost your head and clearly won't miss more of them.

    A nerf needed to happen, but come now, let us ruminate together - when the flaming heck are you going to want to further reduce your already mangled damage for the privilege of hitting 3 targets instead of 1?

    They should have reduced it to 5 and left Champion being the rockstar of being able to hit 8-10 things at once. They should have made Shadow of Dread's legendary something else entirely.

    So no, this was not a step in the right direction - this was a reactionary panic attack in the right direction that hurtled straight past anything resembling a good spot to leave it, busted through a wall and killed six babies on the other side of the parking lot before it stopped.

    RIP Reaver. You're completely worthless at everything now.
    Last edited by Chadak; 12-02-2016 at 10:05 PM.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Nevermind, the Reaver thing is pointless. I should have learned my lesson last time. I hope you still enjoy the game though. =)
    Last edited by ChamberDown; 12-02-2016 at 10:17 PM.
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  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    When reavers were first reworked and released, they had free 7 target cleave at no cost to their ST dps, they also could lower the entire healing of the opposing team in pvp by 30%, not only that, they had the shortest burst CD block in the game @ 21 seconds. They also had an OGCD CC to pair with that burst, and an in combat stealth that removed all dots and CC (IIRC) Not only that, reavers operated at 35m range.

    Let us not pretend that reavers were unfairly targeted for the nerf hammer back then. They were obscenely OP. Obscenely.

    Reavers in SFP again were obscenely OP, and again, they needed a nerf. For one, I'm glad trion took away reavers aoe because with the new legendaries reavers could once again gain free 7 target aoe at no cost to their ST dps. That part always bugged me to begin with.

    Reaver is still performing very well when compared to the other souls atm.

    Now having said that, it is my belief that reavers could use a slight buff going forward, and the other souls be buffed as well to bring them further in line with reaver dps.

    Riftblade however doesn't need a buff, it needs a complete overhaul because it's still operating off of clunky and archaic mechanics of vanilla rift.
    Last edited by Orochan; 12-02-2016 at 10:22 PM.
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  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
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    They do a misserable job. I logged in yesterday. Tried riftblade and paragon and switched back to the reaver. Played first ini and was to frustrated to make another ini. Day for day more people leave this game.

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  13. #13
    Rift Chaser Chadak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    When reavers were first reworked and released, they had free 7 target cleave at no cost to their ST dps, they also could lower the entire healing of the opposing team in pvp by 30%, not only that, they had the shortest burst CD block in the game @ 21 seconds. They also had an OGCD CC to pair with that burst, and an in combat stealth that removed all dots and CC (IIRC) Not only that, reavers operated at 35m range.

    Let us not pretend that reavers were unfairly targeted for the nerf hammer back then. They were obscenely OP. Obscenely.

    Reavers in SFP again were obscenely OP, and again, they needed a nerf. For one, I'm glad trion took away reavers aoe because with the new legendaries reavers could once again gain free 7 target aoe at no cost to their ST dps. That part always bugged me to begin with.

    Reaver is still performing very well when compared to the other souls atm.

    Now having said that, it is my belief that reavers could use a slight buff going forward, and the other souls be buffed as well to bring them further in line with reaver dps.

    Riftblade however doesn't need a buff, it needs a complete overhaul because it's still operating off of clunky and archaic mechanics of vanilla rift.
    You're happy with the new numbers?

    Are those numbers fun?

    I don't think they are. I seem to be one voice amongst a growing multitude on that one.

    If it isn't fun, its garbage.

    Yes, even if the numbers are so pretty.

    Doesn't matter a lick what you or all the metrics in the world say about anything - if its not fun, it isn't going to gel.

    And this mega-nerf turned a ranged AoE class into some sort of ST ranged thing with a mockery of AoE.

    Yes. A mockery. Wanna know why?

    Because. It. Isn't. Fun. Anymore.

    It doesn't have to be OP to be fun. It needs to do respectable AoE damage.

    Anyway, I'm wasting my time. When people like you and anyone working at Trion figure out that, nerfed or buffed, a class is supposed to be fun to play, and Reaver is supposed to be a ranged AoE soul, send me a memo.

    Just because it can still do damage doesn't mean it hasn't had its fun factor taken out back, sodomized and shot.

    Which it did.

    And all the pretty numbers don't change that.
    Last edited by Chadak; 12-03-2016 at 01:34 AM.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Arrow merci

    j'ai toujours été un fan du saccageur, depuis la spé tank, il a énormément régressé pour devenir une insignifiante spé monocible pas capable de tuer une mouche sans capacitée a farm pve et sans potentiel de burst par rapport a certain mage feu/elem et je parle pas des clerc chaman/inqui . ce nerf retire toute capacitée a jouer il n'y plus qu'a essayer de finir une cible basse en vie ou a fufu dans un pack . bref reste plus qu'a fuire les mage en stuff vert qui tue du stuff bleu sans le moindre soucis .

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